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Trouble under the Swing Keel?

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Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/17/2016 : 18:03:01

I found something that might be an issue when sanding the hull getting her ready for a new coat of CSC. I saw a thin metal plate 5 X5 inches fiberglassed to the hull. Is this a typical repair. I dont see any major fixes or cracks.

Take a look and let me know what I should do. I was thinking of just using fiberglass and welding it back to the hull.

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2016 : 20:40:22

Where on the hull? Is it a tubular thing or a flat sheet? Can you see the inside of the hull in that area? is there anything there, like a wire or cable? I'd say it doesn't look "conventional"...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/17/2016 20:42:41

Captmorgan
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220 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2016 : 04:46:22

Its on the very bottom of the hull on the bow side of the keel. Just where the keel goes up in the hull. Its in the center just front of the keel. its a thin sheet of metal that was bonded to the surface with fiberglass or resin. Its like he covered something but there is no evidence of cracks or structural damage.

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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4018 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2016 : 06:10:42

Possible lightning protection plate? Any place on the inside of the hull for attaching a wire to it?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5896 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2016 : 06:30:40

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Possible lightning protection plate? Any place on the inside of the hull for attaching a wire to it?

I was thinking the same thing... maybe a grounding plate, but the pipe puzzles me. Is that attached to the boat, or did you just put it there to prop the plate in place while you took the picture?

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2016 : 08:27:13

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Possible lightning protection plate? Any place on the inside of the hull for attaching a wire to it?
I was thinking the same thing... maybe a grounding plate, but the pipe puzzles me. Is that attached to the boat, or did you just put it there to prop the plate in place while you took the picture?

Pretty sure thats the keel.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Captmorgan
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220 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2016 : 08:37:08

Correct that is an bow end on look at the keel so it looks like a pipe. So it looks like there is a five by five metal (thin) plate adhered to the hull by resin I think.
I m wondering why it is there. and how to seal it back. Do I sand and do like a fiberglass patch smoothing it . Right now it has separated from the hull on the bow edge so it wont be long until it bends back. Heres a Photo from the bottom

Im going to go at and see if a wire is attached to the other side as a lightning arrestor. but I dont know why you would need that. The plate and the keel were both painted over. maybe it shouldnt have been painted?

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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jduck00
Captain

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313 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2016 : 08:54:29

Definitely not normal. If it was my boat I would figure out why its there. That area is just under the mast compression post. Can't really guess as to the why its there. Seems a bit thin for a grounding plate. If the PO is was trying to hide some damage, that would be a bad place for it to be in. I don't believe the hull is built up or reinforced under the compression post. So, your looking at about 1/2"-5/8" of glass. Not a lot of thickness to have something wrong. Have you pulled the metal off and looked under it?

I've attached a picture of the keel trunk I took while repairing mine. It will give you a bit better view of how its laid out on the inside of the boat. I've got a couple of pictures of the hull when I was doing some keel work, but they just show a smooth hull in that area.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2016 : 10:12:42

I'm suspicious it's covering some damage from a minor keel-fall, which can happen even by running over an underwater object. Maybe somebody thought metal would be a stronger repair than glass. I'd pull it off and go from there.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2016 : 12:56:11

OK I have reviewed several youtubes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsoKAHU5xUw) on hull repair and they cut out the section because of the damaged fibers , they also sand 12 X the thickness in a taper, then fill the cut hole with glass and resin layered, then fill the sanded portion with glass and resin. Has anyone done this type of Minor Keel repair. I say minor because its been like that for two years with no leaks or cracks.( I know the cable was replaced two years ago Its a new cable and seems in good working order with no leaks in trunk) . From the looks of the picture above I probably couldn't get to the other side. I can pull the metal off and repair but I need some guidance. Has anyone done the repair like this. Ill put the metal and post some pics.

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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Captmorgan
Navigator

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220 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2016 : 13:01:22

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz5WCfipaNw here is another one looking to validate if this is a good approach

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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Captmorgan
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220 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2016 : 13:39:07

Well I feel kind of stupid now. The metal wasnt glass it was just the feel that made me think it was metal and it was painted. When I peeled it back it was the last layer of fiberglass from the repair made to some minor? swing keel damaged area. No damage radiating out.

The damage doesnt seem like it was big but the piece that peeled off was a single layer. So what are my options to fix this. Can I just sand and relayer with a single sheet of glass and resin.
What glass and resin is best for our boats. Here are some pictures of the layer pulled back

After pulling back and banging hull it looks and feels solid underneat with no cracks etc. Advice?

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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Edited by - Captmorgan on 03/18/2016 13:41:43

jduck00
Captain

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313 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2016 : 18:09:43

That's not minor damage. Its not the end of the world but is going to take some work. Again if it were my boat, take the advice for what it is, I would sand until I got past the crack. That might even mean going all the way through. I use a 10:1 ratio when sanding out for a repair. So for a 1/2" hull that would be a 5" taper on either side.

A single layer of glass is just going to hide the damage. To fix a structural area like this you are going to have to sand a wide taper and build it back. It will be slow. Being that you can't flip the boat upside down and there's really no good way to vacuum bag that area, you are pretty much stuck to a layer at a time while using some thickener in the resin. Even at two layers you would probably get sag. You might be able to get creative and use some cellophane and blocking to hold the glass in place while it cures.

Epoxy resin. That's the only way to go for repairs. That and you will end up loving it over polyester. I can share my own experiences with repair work, but don't want to type a novel. Send me an email through the board, and I'll send you my number.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2016 : 18:29:48

It kind of looks like they might have ground out a large crack, filled the opening with epoxy resin and did a poor job of slapping a fiberglass patch over it. It isn't certain from a photo, but that wouldn't be a satisfactory repair if that's the case. It sounds like you aren't loaded with glass experience and I would suggest you get some local support before tackling something like this. I doubt that it is "minor keel damage" and the trunk should be inspected. I can't imagine a keel swinging that far forward without damage to the aft end of the trunk, if that was the cause. I you might add interior layout (dinette, L dinette, or traditional) to your signature. I don't know how accessible your trunk it.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Edited by - Dave5041 on 03/18/2016 18:37:36

Captmorgan
Navigator

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220 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2016 : 20:37:39

Actually I really dont think there is trunk damage as I have sailed it for two years with this like that. I do agree the repair doesn't look great but it seems solid. I'm not sure the photographs are clear because there are no cracks there are transition lines from the paint layers and the repairs that may look like cracks. It looks like they ground out and filled and the last layer peeled off . The last photo shows it most clearly. Maybe because it was upside down they got poor adhesion on last layer.. When I bring it to the marina to launch Ill have them check it out and help with the repair. I also know that on the interior there is a wood cover over the keel trunk so that is probably where I can get a look at the top pretty easily. Ill do that Sunday. I think they had damage , repaired it but may need some follow up. I have done a lot of body work on cars and I am a chemist/material scientist so I have some foundations but always seek experience. It looks like they used a coarser matted glass fiber than I have seed in many of the videos I watched. it does not look as crossed and woven. it looks like more of a square pattern and not as fine.

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2016 : 08:34:03

If you have a traditional interior, settees port and starboard and removable table, removing the box does expose the the keel trunk.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2016 : 12:24:34

The two areas that commonly are damaged by a keel fall are (1) the area your patch was covering, and (2) the vertical aft edge of the trunk where the keel head rotates, toward the left side of Jeremy's photo above. If you haven't been taking on water around the trunk, the damage might be either superficial or the repairs, while not ideal, were "adequate." But with a 1500 lb. cast iron lever supported by a single pivot point, there are probably some significant stresses in that area--it should be structurally sound so more trouble doesn't develop due to pitching and rolling.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

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