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Rudder recover epoxy or glass?

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slim
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Initially Posted - 01/17/2016 : 13:05:44

What started out to be a simple delamination on a portion of my rudder turned out to be a full blown strip down to the foam on the entire rudder See my photo please. So now with just the foam form of the rudder that is drying out (it was a little damp) I will recover it. My question now is should i do it with fiberglass or epoxy?. Comments on this for your opinions please. I will say that i am very familiar with glass work but have no experience with epoxy at all !!!

Thanks Slim

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

WesAllen
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Response Posted - 01/17/2016 : 13:11:23

I used glass matting with epoxy resin. It was just like using the old fiberglass methods. Caution though, you can't put gelcoat over epoxy.

Wesley Allen
"Breaking Wind"
1982 C-25 SR/TR/SK #2773
Hemlock, MI

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/17/2016 : 13:36:45

That's interesting. I've never seen a foam cored C25 rudder stripped down. The older type rudder had a plywood core inside to stiffen it. Are you saying that the foam core has no stiffener inside? Just the foam? If so, then that means all the strength must be in the outer shell. If anyone else here has ever taken one completely apart, I don't recall them telling us about it. Maybe someone will chime in. I recall that someone here has built a rudder from scratch.

The outside should be layers of glass cloth impregnated with epoxy. I don't know how many layers. I suppose absent any other guide, you should let the material that you removed be your guide. Maybe a phone call to a technician at Catalina would help.

Here's a link to plans for a balanced rudder built by one of our members. He cored it with plywood. Maybe it will help. http://catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/pictures/bsrudder.gif

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

slim
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Response Posted - 01/17/2016 : 14:23:03

Steve

No wood core and the fiberglass was laid up mat, roving, mat. three layers and thats it.

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

jduck00
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Response Posted - 01/17/2016 : 15:43:15

Slim. I used to use poly resin for everything. I used epoxy for some structural repairs on my boat and I wont go back. Poly is great for new layups and is cheaper. Epoxy is a must for glassing to existing glass. Even if the job could go either way like this one, I would still use epoxy, but that's just me.

They work and layup the same. The epoxy does seem to set in a more controlled manner. I don't seem to get as many stringers from the cloth when working with epoxy. With the poly, there is a point that comes on suddenly where you better not touch it after.

The biggest difference is in pot life and set times. With poly, the cure time is set by how much hardener you put in. With epoxy, the amount of hardener is set, but you can pick a couple of different ranges in temperature. With epoxy, its all about heat. With thin layups, its going to take a while, and if you go too thick, over 1/2", it can get too hot.

Get the epoxy resin and the pumps. Get the pumps, and you don't need graduated containers. Three pumps resin, one pump hardener, mix, lay it up. You wont go back after. I get all of my supplies from these fellows. http://www.uscomposites.com/ Their website could use some work, but friendly guys. I always put the order in and then call them to pay for it.

Also, I've had no problem with gelcoating over the epoxy resin. There may be something there, but I haven't had any issues from my repair last spring. I didn't exactly look up known issues before I threw the gelcoat on. I might have to do that now.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 01/18/2016 : 10:51:35

quote:
then that means all the strength must be in the outer shell

Now you got it. Its also why these rudders fail usually around the lower pintles. Over time the outer shell delaminates from the foam from water intrusion, Heat from the sun, Freezing and flexing leaving the foam only to take the forces on the rudder. It would be in your best interest to tap on the sides of your rudder with a screwdriver . It should have a solid sound. Any areas that have a hollower sound are delaminated.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Voyager
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Response Posted - 01/18/2016 : 11:01:25

Scott - so what's the cure for delamination around the lower pintles?
A complete re-do down to bare foamcore as Slim has done, or simply to find the soft spots and patch the glass around that spot? Otherwise, it seems to be quite a radical step.
Thank the gods that Dave removed the rudder from Passage religiously prior to the freeze at the end of season, as have I. I just inspected and it sounds as solid as a rock.

[edit] Would this work? Drill several 1/2" (12mm) holes through the surface of the gelcoat near the pintle, then clear out the inner core using a bent finishing nail in the drill, vacuum out the dust, then inject epoxy into the holes

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 01/18/2016 12:06:15

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9061 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2016 : 12:53:34

I drilled Passage's balanced fiberglass rudder for its pintles--it was foam all the way through. (I overdrilled, filled with epoxy, and redrilled.

I can't say that rudder can't break, but the breaks I've heard of, generally at the lower pintle, were of the older unbalanced OEM blade, which was cored with plywood in the head and was solid fiberglass below the pintles. Once moisture gets into the plywood, it's a matter of time--especially sailing in "big water."

Regarding expoxy vs. fiberglass, they are not mutually exclusive. Epoxy is one of several resins that can be used to make fiberglass laminate. It's about the world's best adhesive, but generally speaking it is not a structural material by itself. The glass fibers in the laminate add a great deal of strength against bending and breaking. A shell of epoxy by itself would tend to crack and break--not what you want in a rudder.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/18/2016 12:57:34

islander
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Response Posted - 01/18/2016 : 14:17:32

quote:
so what's the cure for delamination around the lower pintles?

Bruce, My balanced rudder was delaminating. It had many hollow sounding areas when tapped with a screwdriver. It has a seam around the edge separating the 2 shells. I was able to pop each shell open enough on the leading edge to pour G-Flex down inside until it wouldn't take any more then I laid it down flat and put some weights on it. The next day I tapped all around with a screwdriver handle and got a good solid sound everywhere so I was pleased with the re-lamination. The fact that it was easy to pop the shells open confirmed my suspicions that the foam and the shells were no longer laminated together.

quote:
Would this work? Drill several 1/2" (12mm) holes through the surface of the gelcoat near the pintle, then clear out the inner core using a bent finishing nail in the drill, vacuum out the dust, then inject epoxy into the holes

It might. I was playing with the idea of routing 2-3 vertical channels 1/2 way deep into the rudder in the forward 1/2 or 2/3 of the rudder then G-Flexing Stainless rods into the channels. If I were Slim and had the foam core out like his, Before fiber-glassing it back up I would definitely put the rods into the foam to give the rudder a stiffening frame.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

slim
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Response Posted - 01/18/2016 : 16:01:02

There are a lot of interesting thoughts and knowledge here but i am seeing some things on this rudder that no one has mentioned yet. When it comes to its delamination i have found that the foam core itself was never finished or faired out before the fiberglass was applied. I�m seeing many voids, some small and some larger on one side in particular of the form. It is my belief that this is a manufacturing problem that occurs during the pouring of the foam and the manufacture failed to correct it with fairing compound afterword. In any case i if this was just left unfinished on my rudder I am sure it was left on others and possibly some that had voids much worse than mine. There is a real possibility that this could lead to rudder failure if the voids are in structurally stressed areas.

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/18/2016 : 20:04:26

I suspect some voids in the foam are to be expected. I believe the two halves of the fiberglass shell are created in molds and then bonded together; then the foam is injected into the shell. "Delamination" is when layers of the fiberglass laminate separate from each other, which is serious. Small voids between coring (wood or foam) and fiberglass are not that uncommon.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
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Response Posted - 01/19/2016 : 14:05:35

quote:
I believe the two halves of the fiberglass shell are created in molds and then bonded together; then the foam is injected into the shell.

Close but when I talked to Foss Foam the rudder is made with two half molds. The fiberglass is laid up in these two molds the same way a boat hull is laid up and left to cure. Then a pre determined amount of foam is poured into one of the half molds then the second half mold is clamped to it and left to expand/cure. I suppose that if the poured foam is a little short or doesn't cure/expand properly you could end up with some voids or shallow areas in the foam under the fiberglass skin.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 01/19/2016 14:17:13

slim
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Response Posted - 01/19/2016 : 18:24:17

Anyone that has worked with foam will tell you that voids are formed every place that air is trapped in the mold during the foam expansion process. What i am talking about here is the fact that rudder was fiberglassed with the voids unfilled meaning that the fiberglass had nothing but air to attach to at those locations. It was the manufacturer's responsibility to fill these voids so that the fiberglass covering would have a smooth surface to adhere to and to fill areas that water might gather.

So if the mold for our foam core is the actual fiberglass covering it might lead us to question the methods and wonder if the rudder made with the fiberglass being applied onto the foam core might give us a better long term result in regards to adhesion and delamination.

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Edited by - slim on 01/19/2016 19:05:13

Akenumber
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Response Posted - 01/19/2016 : 20:03:11

Funny enough I just watched catalina , how it's made. It was a bigger boat, but they used a stainless steel skeleton inside the foam. So it might be easy to overlook something like that.

Ken
San Diego
84 C25 SR/FK 4116
The KRAKEN

slim
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Response Posted - 01/31/2016 : 16:52:53

Just so anyone that was interested in this project might have wanted to know, i ended up covering the old foam core with polyester resin and triaxial cloth (3 layers). It is somewhat heavier than the original and i believe it will be much stronger. The bond of the cloth to the foam appears to be complete and without any void or air pockets. We will see this summer.

Triaxeal cloth

First layer

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Edited by - slim on 02/21/2016 19:39:23

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9061 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2016 : 13:31:42

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

That's interesting. I've never seen a foam cored C25 rudder stripped down. The older type rudder had a plywood core inside to stiffen it.

That appears to be an aftermarket replica of the older, unbalanced C-25 rudder (original equipment up to about 1988). The original from Catalina was wood cored in the head, so foam core up there tells me it isn't original--maybe the original rotted and broke. The fiberglass balanced rudder from Catalina in 1988-1991, and then from CD, was foam head to toe.

Being a little heavier might not be a bad thing. My balanced rudder wanted to float off the gudgeons--a cotter pin was necessary to keep it on there. The pin would wear, so I replaced it every year. (Bruce, take note.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/21/2016 : 20:00:35

Oh ya! Note well taken. I use a dozen or so large SS washers on the pintles to offset the gudgeons and to protect the cotter pin from wear. Since I'm concerned about the rudder freezing and splitting in the cold of November and December, I remove the rudder each year and store it inside. When I remount it in the spring, I use either a cotter pin or circlip to keep the pintles on the gudgeons. Usually the stoutest one possible.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Bladeswell
Captain

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Response Posted - 02/22/2016 : 10:36:33

Hello Everyone,
I plan on replacing my rudder with the HDP balanced blue water rudder from CD when I get to that point of my restoration. I don't really know the condition of my existing rudder. I just know that it is very old and I want to be sure. I thought I read somewhere that our stock rudders had a skeleton frame work inside. It just seems like foam alone would not be strong enough. So, here's what I can do. When I get my new rudder, I can completely disassemble the old rudder and find out. I will take pics during the process and post them. Of course, my boat is a 1979 so it will only apply to the older boats.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

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