Association Forum - Slowly I prep for my new ride... a project boat

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Admiralty Forum

Slowly I prep for my new ride... a project boat

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Member Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/11/2014 : 08:13:42

I hope to get a couple weeks sailing her before she gets stored for the season.

I bought a project folks... lemme state more clearly, I AM BUYING a project boat (boat has yet to become mine). I found a "newer" 1986 S2 7.9 close to me in Keyport NJ. It's a 1 owner boat (yep he bought it new in 1986)... Boat was raced a little when he first got it (did well too), and he did very few upgrades to the boat since. Its the Yanmar inboard model (1 cylinder)... Has no working electronics, but what struck me is the deck is very sound in all the critical places (mast step, chain plates). The boat DOES have some core damage though, in a weird spot, right in front of the cabintop winches... I suspect the owner/yard installed spinlocks and didn't properly drill/fill/redrill to bed them.

Anyway... Some pictures, or as they say it "didn't happen." Sorry I didn't get many.

In this picture if you look at the starboard spinlocks in front of the winch, you'll see it's popped up above the deck... water has seeped into and below that (on both sides) and trashed the core...

A closer up shot of the spinlock and the damage...

It is otherwise a remarkably clean (above decks) boat...

The running rigging is a disaster, and S2 in their infinite wisdom decided it was smarter to PAINT the spars rather than anodize them... I think I'll be doing that as well.

A better shot from the foredeck gives you an idea why I bought the boat... you'll see that it is very clean... very few battle scars ON deck. Nothing but wear/fading on the topsides (am hoping to buff/wax out the topsides and get it back to its original glory)...

We (my daughter and I) banged on the hull with a wrench, to find "soft spots" and found nearly NO soft spots... maybe some starting around where the Yard installed the depth sounder. The owner also had the yard (which was his way) fix a base around a winch over the years, and also a stanchion... He also had them widen/open the raw water intake to the inboard. I am not completely sure I like how they did it (it's probably 1/2" recessed, and flared out to 3/4" of a depression in the hull)... it's done right, physically, but I dunno from a race perspective if it's "efficient."

Anyway. The boat is on boatstands like a fin keel boat, with the centerboard in the "down" position. This prevents me from getting it on a trailer (or rather setting it on a trailer). The owner agreed to have the yard "fix" it so that I can come take possession. Its been 5 days, and honestly I have about a dozen ways in my head that I could fix it myself... it might be soon that I'll be pressing the issue.

Edited by - shnool on 09/11/2014 08:20:23

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2014 : 08:27:25

Ok so I borrowed a trailer from a local club member to go get the boat (pickted the borrowed trailer up on 9/9/2014)... but I wanted if it was possible to find a trailer of my own as the season effectively ends in 3 weeks at our club. So I found a trailer on Craigslist that was close by (nearly up at the lake honestly), that was rated 5400lbs GVWR and the trailer itself was less than 1000lbs. This puts the carrying capacity at over 4400lbs, with 400lbs or so margin of error for "gear." After looking at the trailer I realized it has (2) 3500lb axles, and the placard on it stated that with different tires it'll handle all the way up to 7000lbs.

I took some measurements and compared them to my club-mates S2 7.9 trailer (a BRAND NEW TRAILER by the way from Load Rite), I got measurements. The comparison visually was tough as they bought a 9400lb GVWR trailer, and it had 36 rollers, and was seriously overbuilt (not a bad thing), but I want/need a proper comparison in size to be able to get a used trailer that will work.

The S2 7.9 is unique in that it can be treated like a round bottom run-about (or V-hull) because when the Weighted Centerboard/Keel is up, it's completely retracted.

Well anyway, I think I found the proper trailer... You'll note in the picture I've moved the winch stand forward, and up... and I think I'm also going to flip around the first 2 sets of rollers to move them forward some. This all looks pretty adjustable.

The boat SHOULD rest mostly on the keel rollers on this trailer, however, I'd have been happier if it had more rollers (I might add some in the future).

A 21 foot inboard/outdrive run-about was on the trailer before, and handled it well.. it weighed in at a lofty 4200lbs. The S2 7.9 is 4050lbs. So I am sort of winging this.

The good news is I measured the club-mate's trailer, and the distance from the bow chock, to the middle of the axles I've adjusted in this trailer within an inch (yeah I could do that!!!)... I think the center of gravity should be pretty close to his trailer then.

The overall length of this trailer is about 2 feet shorter, 3 if you include the overhang he has in rollers. Again though his trailer is the most overbuilt S2 7.9 trailer I've ever seen.

But I agree this trailer needs more rollers.
It looks easy enough to add rollers though.

Edited by - shnool on 09/11/2014 08:36:09

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2014 : 08:29:32

Very cool, and congrats! :)

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2014 : 09:01:34

HA... maybe I spoke too soon... Owner can't get the board up (even with yard help)... something about keel being fatter on the lower half? This makes no sense. I may now own a trailer but no boat (no money changed hands on the boat yet, but was just a "formality.")

I am really getting tired of sellers of boats who lie... He knew of this problem from 10 years ago.

Edited by - shnool on 09/11/2014 10:08:52

silver sooner
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2014 : 10:45:35

John, you know this is only because you said that your next boat would be "better" ;-)

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2014 : 11:54:38

I told you Jason, anytime you wanna return the boat...

Also Jason it'll be years (if ever) an S2 7.9 is "better" than a Capri 25... just my opinion...

I actually don't like the S2 7.9 much. But our local fleet is 7.9 heavy, so it makes sense to race what the masses are racing.

Edited by - shnool on 09/11/2014 11:58:16

silver sooner
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2014 : 12:22:38

I'd buy you a plane ticket to come race her with me before I'd ever think of returning her. It's just a consequence of all the quality work you put into her.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2014 : 11:21:55

Offer in on another S2 7.9... I bailed on the last guy because he still couldn't get the yard to raise the daggerboard/keel.
The new model is an outboard, and older, 1982. Cross your fingers. I can't believe how hard finding a quality S2 has been.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4012 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2014 : 11:49:31

quote:
The new model is an outboard,

Probably better, None of the problems associated with an inboard and I would guess it would be faster.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2014 : 03:02:54

Ok, change of plans... I'm in Monroe, MI right now... with a different model S2 7.9 (1982, hull 68). This is an outboard model.
The boat is sound (apparently a rare thing in these old S2s), but the trailer it's sitting on is kind of scary... thankfully I have a good trailer at home, so my next 24 hours (or hopefully only 8) might be kinda ugly.

No trailer lights
Bearings are edgy at best (one was gone I already replaced/repacked)... I've regreased the remaining bearings.
Tires are roughly 8 years old, and show signs of dry rot...
Brakes don't work.

The trailer was used in 2006, to drag the boat all over the country, so it HAS to potential to be a great trailer.

The 3500 diesel dually I own has exhaust braking, so stopping the trailer is fine... I have 500 miles to drag this thing (an appropriate discription with this trailer)...

Wish me luck... Once I get it home, I'll obviously be doing a LOT of work on that trailer.

Edited by - shnool on 10/02/2014 03:05:38

silver sooner
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2014 : 07:20:11

Congrats John! She looks good!

Sounds like once you get something going for the lights, all you'll have to sweat will be the tires. Hope the pull home goes safe and smooth.

Edited by - on

kc5dlo
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
71 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2014 : 09:58:11

Those look like 14.5 inch tires on mobile home rims.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2014 : 13:25:45

Interesting thread...
A 7.9 is a MUCH nicer boat than a Capri 25, faster, built better, nicer glass work, better hardware and spars and more comfortable. I don't mean to bag on Capri 25s but all of us who own Catalina products know we are not sailing the quality of boats that are made around the great lakes; Tartan, C&C, S2 among others.The S2 end grain balsa core hull is strong, quiet, insulated and seldom develops core issues. The other boat obviously had water in the DAGGER BOARD so it was swollen and would not retract. Good job running from that boat, a bad owner equals a bad boat, any jerk who would not repair the dagger board on a 7.9 should have an aluminum pontoon boat.

The boat at our club which has traveled to Nationals many times uses a roach lifter, a "batten" at the top of the mast to get teh backstay out of the way when the big roach tacks over.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2014 : 17:51:08

Frank, that's a "flicker" yep actual name.
http://www.mauriprosailing.com/us/category/1-Selden-Backstay-Flickers.html

Sorry hard to call the S2 a "better boat" when nearly every "end grain balsa cored" boat I've looked at is soggy as a sponge. Granted that leads more to "care" of the boat, but come on... the mantra "quality built boats" doesn't hold up well, when my "Crapee" held up better.

I'd say the spars were better quality than the Capri. But I had all Harken gear on my Capri. Lewmar winches, Forespar tiller extension, dual headfoil from Headfoil 2.. so I dunno, so far looks to be "on par" for what I had.

Obviously I had way better sails, I aim to fix that.

One really cool thing about the S2 7.9... besides having way more room below (and an enclosed head), is the lifting keel.. ramp launches will be WAY easier.

OK Here's the actual boat

So I guess the bearing job I did was sufficient. The totally dry rotted tires SHOULD have blown, but they didn't so now I have time to fix all that.

Edited by - shnool on 10/02/2014 17:52:56

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2014 : 19:42:13

Very nice. They have a serious boom... duck.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2014 : 03:10:27

Where is the Boom?

Paul

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2014 : 03:45:34

Paul - Boom is appropriately named, it's the sound the make when they hit your head (usually the last sound you hear).

No question Frank... 10.5ft boom? This boat is ALL main. Boat comes with a Doyle Boston main with 4 battens, one full that looks like it might have been used 2 or 3 times. 3 other mains that look pretty good. I have to dig them all out there was at least 10 bags of sails.

Lots of work to do to make this boat as nice as the one in your picture Frank... but that's the goal!

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2014 : 13:02:45

I meant... "Where's" the boom?
Does it fit in the cabin?

Paul

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5882 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2014 : 15:45:22

I agree with most of Frank's comments about the 7.9, but my C25 beat them consistently, despite the fact that they had new, laminated racing sails and my sails were race-cut dacron, and very old. They could usually only beat my C25 in very light air, when the air movement wasn't enough to lift my heavy dacron sails.

The S2 has about 30' more sail area than the tall rig C25, but the C25 has a longer waterline by about 5". Thus, when the wind was strong enough to drive the two boats to hull speed, the S2 would be held back by it's bow wave at a lower speed than the C25. For that reason alone, the C25 would run away from the S2 on a fast reach. The S2 has a 9' beam as compared to the C25s 8' beam, and the wider beam probably increases the S2s wetted surface. The S2 could reduce its wetted surface downwind by raising it's daggerboard, but, on the windward leg, the added wetted surface created more drag. The masthead-rigged C25 TR had a taller mast than the S2 with fractional rig, and that would give the C25 TR a bigger spinnaker for the downwind leg.

The S2 7.9 is a very nice boat and would be fun to race one-design, but, IMO, it's overall sailing abilities are about equal to the C25 TR. I don't say that to denigrate the S2, but to help you appreciate the extraordinary capabilities of the C25.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4012 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2014 : 16:00:38

Had to look that up...

quote:
In Mexico "ni modo" means "it doesn't matter", "whatever", "not important", "oh well", "no big deal" and quite a few more things,

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2014 : 17:11:33

Boom in cabin Paul.

Not to be a noodge here, but I am NOT sure how boat for boat a Catalina 25 tall rig can come close to an S2 7.9, the ratings are equivalent to a J/24 versus an Oday 26, perhaps we are talking S2 8.0?

Ni Modo wouldn't be my choice in names.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5882 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2014 : 19:11:37

quote:
Originally posted by shnool

Boom in cabin Paul.

Not to be a noodge here, but I am NOT sure how boat for boat a Catalina 25 tall rig can come close to an S2 7.9, the ratings are equivalent to a J/24 versus an Oday 26, perhaps we are talking S2 8.0?

Consider the comparisons in specs that I mentioned, especially the LWL. The C25 TR is, by design, capable of higher speed. Ratings are only a rough approximation of boat performance. Moreover, ratings can be skewed. If a fast boat is only raced by cruisers and casual racers (like the C25, for example), it's handicap will reflect that fact with a higher rating number, even though, by design, it is capable of much better performance. The PHRF is a performance handicap rating. It is based on records of the boat's performance that are turned in after races. It has nothing to do with the boat's actual, inherent ability to perform. C25s are rarely raced by serious racers, so they turn in performances that are well below their inherent ability to perform.

In the last two years that I owned my C25 TR/FK, I raced it non-spin in the 12 boat J24 fleet. It usually was 2nd or 3rd to round the windward mark, On the downwind leg, most, but not all of them, usually beat her. Occasionally, it beat 2 or 3 of the Js across the finish line, even flying only white sails.

Consider the C27. They turn in remarkable performances on the Chesapeake Bay, and I see them regularly beat boats, scratch, that are rated much faster. The C27 is an older design than the C25, and the C25 has a longer waterline length, and is considerably lighter displacement.

I see a lot of C25 owners on the forum who think the boat is just a mediocre performer, and think they should know what the boat is capable of doing when it is made race ready, and well-sailed.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/05/2014 19:13:38

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2014 : 03:53:23

Steve LWL is merely a measure of displacement max speed.
Its actually one of those things that makes mixed fleet racing tricky. The reason I say that is, once ALL boats hit their theoretical maximum hull speed, because of the length of their waterline... if all you do is REACH up and REACH back, then HE who has the longest waterline wins...

In those conditions a boat that has a large sprit, an asym, and can plane can mop up (think J/70 or melges 24).

But with a real windward leeward in these older boats that use symmetricals, it comes back into the hands of the sailors. Then a lighter displacement symmetrical CAN overcome their LWL limitation by surfing. I've seen S2 7.9s exceed hull speed quite generously (I was on one that hit double digits for over 15 seconds). I've never seen a Catalina 25 exceed 8 knots. It's for these reasons I'd smoke the Catalina 25 with my Capri 25.

But once again, I really don't like the S2 7.9 much (if I were to speak honestly). The things that get me are OD racing, an enclosed head, and performance of a J/24, with the ability to EASILY launch the boat at ANY boat ramp, and actually an ability to sail well in heavier wind conditions. Many of these things exist also in the Catalina 25 (swing keel is the one I'd compare to)... except for me the OD racing requirement.

Edited by - shnool on 10/06/2014 03:54:09

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5882 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2014 : 06:06:32

John, I'm not knocking the 7.9. On the contrary, I admire much about it and would enjoy racing it OD. I just bought an old Cal 25 to race OD, and it is rated much slower than the 7.9. Racing OD isn't about ratings. It's a test of skills in boats of equal abilities. I'm simply saying the C25 is under-rated, and easy to sail above it's rating.

I've seen lots of S2 7.9s that have been race prepped, and equipped, and sailed well, but how many C25s have you seen like that? Not many. Until I bought mine, almost all 2553 of them previously had been sold with stock Catalina sails, which were very poorly made at that time. I bought mine without sails, and ordered a set of dacron racing sails from North. North told me they had to get the specs for the sails from Catalina, because, at that time, North had never made sails for a C25 before. I faired my cast iron fin keel, because it came from the factory very rough. The rig was tuned for speed and a very light weather helm. Whenever I was serious about winning a race, I always jumped in the water and scrubbed the bottom, to make absolutely certain that nothing slowed it down. My boat was race-ready and I sailed it well. When the C25 was equipped and prepped to race with the same care as other boats, such as the S2 7.9, it was very competitive with them, and often beat them. If I scrubbed my bottom and they didn't, it made it easier to beat them. Most racing takes place in conditions that don't permit planing. When that happens, all the boats have to slog around the race course below hull speed, and that equalizes them to a great extent, and deprives lighter displacement boats of one of their principal advantages.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2014 : 07:04:18

Over the years, I have read Steve's posts about extraordinary C 25 performances against boats with much faster numbers. I believe Steve to be a "Fair Witness" and do not doubt him. I know a lot of sailors that would like to race any C 25 to dispute Steve's experiences. I would love to be there and watch.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5882 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2014 : 10:04:22

Thanks Frank. Long time members know that I'm not the only person with those experiences. Derek Crawford raced his C25 with extraordinary success for many years, as did Chuck Shaw and others. As a racer, the C25 is much under-appreciated.

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.