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single line reefing

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/20/2003 : 23:19:32

Not long ago we were discussing single line reefing problems and why Catalina has dropped leading the jiffy reef line aft to the cockpit on the c250. I had suggested then it was likely because using the winch to set a reef was damaging the main. From Pineapple Sails come these comments.

http://www.sailmaker.com/articles/reefing.htm

SINGLE LINE REEFING SYSTEM
I would like to discuss the single line reefing system as a separate subject. My biggest problem is that one cannot establish luff tension, thereby reducing the load on the luff sliders, before placing a load on the reef clew line. This will often cause the bottom several luff sliders to start tearing out of the luff of the sail. My second problem is that these 'systems' are sold under the notion that they are 'simple.' They are NOT simple. That is partially due to the fact that the loads in a reefed sail are not simple. The load coming out of the reef clew is very much greater than the load out of the reef tack. (If you look closely you will notice that the size of the reef clew patch is greater, and with more layers, than the reef tack patch.) It is difficult to have a single line carry a large load in one end and a small load in another end...not impossible, just difficult (not simple). To get around this, some single line systems do not have a "single line," but rather two separate lines, one is the reef clew line which lives inside the boom with a block attached, and the other, which starts at the front of the boom, travels aft to this block, then forward to the reef tack, then down and aft to the cleat...not simple.

At their web site they outline the steps to reefing and they want to see the tack set first so that the clew doesn't haul against the luff slides. Or, in the case of the single (double line) they are set in unison.

The point that is made about the tack not being reinforced near as greatly as the clew seems important to the c250 system as the single line jiffy reef line will pull considerably harder on the tack than it will on the clew and this is 180 degrees opposed to the need.

This problem would be solved with the single (double line) system but I'm wondering if the boom on the c250 is large enough for an internal block to float within. Such a system places a 2:1 purchase on the clew where it is needed. On the c250 it would also drop that 180 turning block on the mast from the reef line going to the clew.

I find myself in agreement with the writer who says that single line system aren't so simple.

I have been using a two line system on my second reef and it is simpler to set than the single line on my 1st reef bearing in mind that I do all sail handling from on the cabin top. I'm going to abandon the single line 1st reef. It will require moving the small block on the port side of mast to the starboard so that the clew line will come back up to the lower horn cleat with the upper horn cleat handling the tack line.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 02/20/2003 23:20:26

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2003 : 01:14:57

I installed single line reefing last year on my Cat25FK. It was not good for the sail and actually was not easy to set. It was easier and quicker to set the 2 line system. I have just completed refitting to the two line system and repairing my main. We had run across that article from Pineapple sails some time ago. They have other interesting articles if you poke around their site.

Paul C25FK Sparky
'PZ' W7JVY KFS/KTK/KLB/KOK/WNU/KPH/WCC/VAI/VAJ

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2003 : 12:06:13

Arlyn & Paul: Thanks for steering me off the single-line course. This Spring, I need to mount the cheek block(s) to turn the reefing line(s) down to the cabintop, where they'll run back... I was planning a single-line setup--now I'm convinced to go with two. It seems the most important factor is solidly setting the tack before the clew. For the tack, I plan to use the fowardmost block at the base of the mast in order to pull forward a little.

OK, I'll go back to the C-25 forum now... <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2003 : 22:39:05

Dave, if you run out of deck organizers, don't forget that you could cleat the reef clew aft on the boom.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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1038 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2003 : 21:26:35

Arlyn,

Thanks for the posting of this article

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> From Pineapple Sails come these comments.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

It is loaded with good information. I am gathering material to do a 2-line reef for the second reef. I will continue to use the 1 line reef system for the first reef. I have a system that is close to what the Pineapple people said. Have not notice any wear to the reefing clew or the tack.

Did you use self-tapping hardware to mount blocks and cleats to the boom or did you use rivets?

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2003 : 23:32:55

I used rivets on the cheek blocks and eye strap. I can't recall on the jam cleat but I'm guessing that I tapped it.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 09:57:57

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I used rivets on the cheek blocks and eye strap.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Do you recall what size rivets you used for the blocks?

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 14:17:05

The blocks were the ones that have a bit of curviture to conform to the boom. I used 3/16 stainless which is at the limit for a hand operated rivet tool and I think the hole size for the blocks.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 17:23:10

Thanks Arlyn

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

jkountz
1st Mate

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USA
48 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2003 : 18:51:22

Several months ago I posted a response on the subject of running reefing lines to the cockpit. When I first posted my response I had recently completed mod's to rig both reef points with two separate single line reefing systems lead aft to the cockpit. I made this modification to improve safety in heavy weather. I sail in Puget Sound where we often get fairly stiff winds and rough seas during the winter months.

Having sailed for several months with both reef lines led aft using two separate single line reefing systems I now have some practical experience worth sharing.

The first issue I encountered was the need to raise the main using the winch. With both reef points rigged with separate single line reefing systems, the increased resistance of the reefing lines running through several sets of blocks was enough of a problem that raising the main required mechanical assistance. My biggest concern with this is the possibility of breaking a sail slug, since I can no longer sense by hand any binding problems.

The second issue is the quality of the reef. I have found that I have to manually snug the reef tack to the mast in-order to get good sail form.

In theory, single line reefing provides an additional level of safety, not having to leave the cockpit to reef the boat. In practice I’ve found that I am typically reefing the boat from the safety of the harbor.

Since then I’ve added a lazy-jack and an auto-pilot, both of which have proven more valuable, especially when single handing the boat.

I will probably remove at least one of the single line reef’s in favor of reducing the resistance when raising the main.

Edited by - on

bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2003 : 22:47:44

I was inspired to try to simplify the reefing system by using a reefing hook. The system is still one line, but the reef tack in supported by a reefing hook. The part I used is available from West item #122895 at $8.99. I mounted the hook on the same clevis pin that is used for the main tack shackle. Total instailation time less than 5 minutes. The clue lines still run from the boom to blocks on the mast then to horn cleats. Reefing porcedure is to lower the halyard, hook the tack, tension the halyard, pull in the reef clue.
I think this reef in easier, and shapes the sail better.
Bill c250wb Serendipity
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3db23b3127cce973528d27b0c0000002610" border=0>

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3db23b3127cce97352694fa7d0000002610" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3db23b3127cce9735255bba2b0000002610" border=0>

Edited by - bill bosworth on 05/02/2003 22:54:46

Edited by - bill bosworth on 05/02/2003 22:58:13

Edited by - bill bosworth on 05/02/2003 23:02:46

Edited by - bill bosworth on 05/02/2003 23:23:57

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2003 : 12:11:48

Bill,
Have you had the opportunity to actually use this reefing
hook yet? I still have the single reef setup with the one line application as shown in the owners manual. I have not ventured out in winds strong enough yet to wish I had the second reefing point. When in doubt I use the 8 h.p. honda and douse the sails, thanks in advance. "Bear" on Brandy C250 WB #089 "Splash in two weeks if the lake level goes down"

Edited by - on

bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2003 : 21:14:42

Well, no. I put the reef hook in yesterday and did a little practice, but there was little or no air to try things out. I did have a reef hook on our last boat, a Cal 25 II. The Cal had both reef lines running through the boom, and had a couple of cam cleats built into the front of the boom. I have the clue outhaul lines run to cleats on the mast on the Catalina 250. I have used the reefing system on the Cal many, many times, I found it easy and fast to do.
While practicing putting the reefs in the main yesterday, I marked the halyard for both reefs, so that I know just how far to drop the main to put in the hook. Because the reefing line now only pulls in the clue there is only about half the line to pull and you only need to concentrate on one point, the outhaul clue. You do need to go up on the cabin top, but you have the mast and boom to hang on to.
I hope to get out in some wind tomorrow and play with it some more. I'll let you know if there are any problems.
Bill cat 250wb #134 Serendipity

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2003 : 09:33:34

Bill... looks like a great way to handle the reef tacks. Recalled is only one six our cruising day...when shifting gears between the 1st and 2nd reef was done about half dozen times and it was nice to have the 1st set to just fall back to. But, using the hook for both tacks makes great sense.

Your saying you have both reef clew lines internal to the boom? If so, do you use an adjustable topping lift? How is it rigged?

btw...Have you tried loose footing? I think it allows better sail shaping and the side benefit is that it allows the boom to be used as a greatly appreciated hand rail.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2003 : 12:17:55

Arlyn;
I tried to keep the topping lift simple, so it is adjustible only at the aft end of the boom, I guess the line could also be lead forward.
No, I haven't tried the main loose footed, seems like something I should try, looks like a lot of rain on the weather map this week, I hope I can get out to give it a try.
Bill, C250wb #134 Serendipity<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3db24b3127cce97de8d6a109c0000002610" border=0>

Edited by - on

ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2003 : 22:28:59

Bill,
When you use the Reefing hook do you take the reefed Luff out of the track on the mast?
thanks,
Steve

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc32b3127cce94d57c8cff3b0000001010" border=0> Moon Chaser #385WK <img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/forum1.gif" border=0>

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bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2003 : 20:41:23

Steve;
No, the reef cringles are placed so that they each reach down to the hook without any sail slugs being removed from the mast. I push sail folds out of the way, in my case to the starbord side so that there is plenty of clearance around the hook.
I hope that makes some sense.
Bill c250wb Serendipity

Edited by - on

kirkh
Deckhand

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USA
17 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2003 : 22:30:03

I had the opportunity to try out Bill's reefing hook today in 25+ knot winds. I like it much better than the standard jiffy reefing as it was very easy to get a reef in. Now the reefing line only controls the clew end of the sail (comes out of the boom to the block at the mast base and back to the cockpit). Before I hoisted the main, I tightened the reefing line, went to the mast and hooked the reef, and hoisted the main. Perfect reef. No more trying to get one line to do numerous things.

The only difficulty I had installing the hook was the 1" clevis pin was too short. I made do with a 1.5 inch bolt/lock nut that I will replace soon.

Kirk
#490-WK

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2003 : 09:17:00

Will try the reefing hook also.

Also, for some time I thought about adding a cheek block and cleat for the topping lift as Bill shows in the picture. My topping lift does run internal to the boom, and I routed it evidently exactly where Catalina did later opposite the outhaul. This would have given a double ended topping lift for those times when forgetting to release it at the forward boom cleat. But, the forgetting seemed to stop... guess that having to go back to the coach roof a few times finally developed a discipline to remember that the last act in setting or shaking out a reef is releasing the topping lift.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2003 : 23:54:05

Kirkh;
I put the reef hook inside of the gooseneck fitting. I pulled the clevis pin from the tack fitting out half way, then fed it into the hole in the reef hook, then back in place.
I also needed to reef in some pretty high winds the other day, I found that the reef went in easily (with the hook) and looked great.
I also was happy to cut off the extra reef line length.
Good sailing
Bill c250wb Serendipity

Edited by - on

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2003 : 00:36:57

Bill, I love the reef hook idea and ran out and bought one. I wondered though when I looked at my gooseneck, the clevis pin is so far back almost against the boom post, would the hook be able to fit inside the gooseneck with the same clevis pin running through it. I'm wondering if grinding would be the only solution, which makes me think, is that why Kirth put his on the outside of the gooseneck? If so, is that also do-able, or a bad technical idea. I didn't have time to mess with my set up but I'll get out this weekend so hopefully it will all work out, I'm dying to cut the reef line!! Does any of this sound familiar? Thanks

Suzie, Tropical Sleigh
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da07b3127cce96a441e875780000001010" border=0>
WB #619 Sarasota FL.

Edited by - on

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2003 : 23:44:43

Well I took the tack clevis pin 0out and tried to fit the reef hook on it within the gooseneck. No dice, the hook doesn't fit, as it appeared the boom is sitting a fraction of an inch too close to the tack clevis...what a bummer, I do have a 1" x 1 1/4" clevis to trade out the existing 1" , but to attach the hook it would have to be on the outside of the gooseneck. Again I'm no mechanic so I hope someone can let me know if this is an unwise set up. Till then I'll live with the jiffy (ha) reefing system.

Suzie, Tropical Sleigh
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da07b3127cce96a441e875780000001010" border=0>
WB #619 Sarasota FL.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2003 : 08:55:10

Suzie, grinding to make it fit doesn't seem that it would be difficult. If without a grinder, check out Harbor Freight and Tool. They have some cheap grinders with noisy bearings but hey, as often as they get used, they serve well.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2003 : 00:00:49

Suzie;
I guess I was lucky that the reef hook fit without modification. I think I would try to grind a little off. Putting the hook on the outside would probably work, but having it inside insures that it is in the right position when you want it rather than rotated down. As I recall the reef hook was welded to the goose neck on my last boat.
I think the modification is worth the effort.
Good sailing
Bill c250wb Serendipity

Edited by - on

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2003 : 00:39:32

Thanks BIll and Arlyn, I will have a friend attempt to grind the hook.
Have a great sailing summer!!!!!!!!

Suzie, Tropical Sleigh
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da07b3127cce96a441e875780000001010" border=0>
WB #619 Sarasota FL.

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