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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Standard Rig Main on a Tall Rig Mast

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juswalk
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/27/2013 : 10:26:20

Well…
I found this to be the case on my boat this weekend. My boom managed to find its way out of the boom slot while I was dousing the main. Once back at the dock I started to investigate a bit closer and noticed that the boom rests above the boom slot by 4 inches or so instead of below by the same amount. It appears that the sail stop holding the boom above the slot had loosened itself allowing the gooseneck to leave the slot.

I am tempted to leave it as is and appreciate the fact that I can purchase a somewhat taller bimini and not need to spend the money on a properly sized tall rig sail. On another note, with this set up am I sacrificing controllability at all? The boom seems to be quite high and I wonder if lowering the boom to its intended position would have a positive effect even though the sail would not be as high on the mast.

Any thoughts?

Hull#5484 1986 Catalina 25 TR/FK "Lorelei" NAS Pensacola

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2013 : 10:40:23

I'd keep the boom below the gate, maybe even with a sail stop above it. A sail-stop below the gooseneck might slide down a little each time the gooseneck hits it, such as when you douse the sail or are riding in a little chop with the sail down. I experienced this with a sail-stop under the gooseneck that was below the gate. If the slider pops out with the sail up, you could do serious damage to the sail.

I guess the question then is can you still have clearance for your binimi?

Gate plates, such as those from Catalina Direct, would help, although I don't consider them engineered to contain the gooseneck under load when sailing.

With the boom held below the gate, your SR sail will be just about like a reefed TR sail in height as well as area. You should get about the same drive as you now have with a full hoist, with a little less heeling force and less risk of the boom escaping again.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/27/2013 10:45:17

juswalk
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2013 : 11:58:28

Thanks for the input. The reduction in healing force is something that I considered as well with the sail being lower on the mast and is a big consideration for me.

During the course of the weekend I set the boom below the boom slot as a test fit. With the pig tail attached the boom is substantially lower where it meets the mast. Is this typical or is there something else at play? Like a shortened pig tail? With the boom riding above the mast slot and with the pig tail attached the boom is parallel to the cabin top. What does "right" look like in this case?

BTW, I will have room for a bimini but with the boom higher in the mast I could have a taller one.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2013 : 12:07:00

I'd definitely get mast gates, as Dave suggests. I found them to be a real convenience, especially when tucking in a reef. I had them on my C25, and loaded them as much as I could load them, and never had them fail.

My general thinking is that you should rig your boat any way you wish, with the only proviso being that we probably should all avoid doing something so bizarre that other sailors point at us and laugh.

IMO, setting the mainsail a few inches either above or below the gooseneck isn't bizarre, and it probably won't have any noticeable affect on the boat's performance. You will lose a little speed, especially in lighter air, as a result of using a smaller mainsail, but you appear to be willing to accept the trade-off of a little sail area in exchange for other conveniences, such as a higher bimini. That's a perfectly reasonable and logical trade-off to make.

Raising the mainsail above the mast slot will increase the boat's tendency to heel slightly, but, in high winds, that just means you will want to reef a little earlier, to keep the boat on it's feet. But, if you think about it, a tall rig boat with a tall rig mainsail has alot more sail area than your boat will have with a standard rig mainsail. That means the boat is capable of carrying the extra sail area without becoming outrageously tender. With your reduced sail area, I don't think your boat will be significantly more tender if you raise the sail above the slot.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 05/27/2013 12:18:49

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2013 : 13:21:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by juswalk
 ...During the course of the weekend I set the boom below the boom slot as a test fit. With the pig tail attached the boom is substantially lower where it meets the mast... With the boom riding above the mast slot and with the pig tail attached the boom is parallel to the cabin top. What does "right" look like in this case?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't follow--that sounds backwards... Is what you're calling the "pigtail" the cable attached to the backstay with a clip on the end? That's the term in this crowd.

By the way, as I said, the SR main is approximately the same as the TR main with a reef tucked in. Not raising the SR main to the top will just look you you have a reef, but with an in-boom furling system! (Some other sailors will drool!) Hoisting it to the top will probably look less natural, since the boom will be 2' higher than that of a standard rig (and 3' higher than a TR).

If you do get gate plates, I would not sail with the gooseneck slider at the gate level--keep it above or below. The plates are robust, as Steve says, but a loaded boom is probably a lot more load than any sail slugs, which it is intended to contain. A jibe could be too much.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/27/2013 13:24:29

juswalk
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2013 : 19:44:53

Thanks for all of the input.

With the pigtail comment I should have been more descriptive. With the pigtail connected the aft portion of the boom is much higher than the forward portion of the boom with the gooseneck set below the boom slot. Above the boom slot and with the pigtail connected, the boom is parallel to the cabin top. It seems to me that the pigtail would have a length that would allow the boom to sit level in the stowed position.

Again, thanks for the input!

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2013 : 19:49:02

What are typical wind conditions like where you sail? The 3' extra luff length on the tall sail does help a lot in light air.

A Capri 25 (and other options too) sail will split the difference, it's 2' taller than standard and 1' shorter than tall. That can let you keep the bimini.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2013 : 06:44:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 A Capri 25 (and other options too) sail will split the difference, it's 2' taller than standard and 1' shorter than tall. That can let you keep the bimini.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and puts the boom at the height of a standard rig C-25, which was comfortable for us (both under 6').

I wouldn't worry too much about the pigtail--I considered it a hazard (when you forget to unhook it before hoisting the sail). I left it off my replacement backstay. A topping lift and a snug mainsheet are generally adequate.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/28/2013 06:45:53

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2013 : 08:25:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 I wouldn't worry too much about the pigtail--I considered it a hazard (when you forget to unhook it before hoisting the sail). I left it off my replacement backstay. A topping lift and a snug mainsheet are generally adequate.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yep, do yourself a favor and get the pigtail out of the equation. I had to personally relearn that lesson more times than I care to admit before I finally got the hint.

Edited by - on

juswalk
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2013 : 17:21:44

Thanks again for the help. The pigtail is a huge pain and I would like to get rid of it. I have been looking at the topping lift from CD. Any thoughts on that kit?

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2013 : 22:18:17

You can do it yourself better for less money.

You need a fixed pennant of 28', a small block (the lighter the better) for the bottom of the pennant, a small cheek block for the end of the boom, about 15' of 1/4" line, and a cleat for the boom.

Catalina Direct uses a covered wire pennant. I'd recommend making one out of 7/64" or 1/8" dyneema (AmSteel is the common brandname) with a brummel splice on either end. Even if you've never spliced the brummel is pretty easy. There are directions here:
http://l-36.com/brummel2.php

To make this you'll want 30' of line, since you'll be burying 12" of each end.

Catalina Direct uses a too heavy block that weighs down the line. Get a Harken 29mm Carbo Ti-Lite block:
http://www.fisheriessupply.com/harken-single-29mm-carbo-airblocks

The 1/4" line can be anything, it doesn't matter very much.

The reason to go light on the topping lift is that it will then fly out behind the sail even under very light wind, keeping it from ever hanging up on the roach of the sale. The CD kit one won't do it, but an Amsteel one with that block does it very well.

Price comparison for my version:
$18 for block on the pennant
$13 for the cheek block
$9 for the amsteel to make the pennant
$5 for the line along the boom
$4 for a cleat
$5 for misc hardware.

That's $55. The CD kit is $90ish.

I did buy the CD kit, so I've used it. Then I made my own for my Pearson, and it's a lot better.

alex

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2013 : 06:30:54

To make my topping lift adjustable, I used a Harken Micro Block on the end of the line coming down from the mast-head (after shortening it).

Then I ran a small line (maybe 3/16") from the shackle on the micro, through a small swivel-block on the boom end, and back up around the lower sheave in the micro. The V on the micro-block serves as a jam-cleat, so I could lift the line, pull or ease, and then let it slide back into the V. No cleat on the mast, and no "cleating" of the line necessary. A stopper-knot insured the boom couldn't fall. Wish I had a picture of the set-up. (I saw it on ex-commodore Jim Baumgart's boat when I went out with him.)

($30 at Defender.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/31/2013 09:16:19

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2013 : 12:30:34

After a decade of adjusting my boom topping lift at the end of the boom, I led it back to the cabin top and I much prefer this way. Not having to stand up or maneuver around the bimini is a plus when conditions are not optimal, especially if the boom end is dancing around.

Edited by - on

juswalk
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2013 : 04:26:32

Thanks for the great tips. I think I will go with making my own lift. Thanks again!

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awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2013 : 15:08:27

How often do you find yourself adjusting it Don?

I usually keep my topping lift a couple of inches longer than the leech. This way it does it's job when the sail is lowered, but blows out of the way of the sail when the sail is raised.

In really light winds I will tighten the topping lift to avoid closing the leech, but I then loosen it again slightly when putting the boat away, so that it's ready to go next time.

I know there are many ways to do this, this is just what works best for me.

Edited by - on

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