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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Roller furling recommendation

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sailboat
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/19/2013 : 14:01:48

What roller furler system is recommended for a 1980 C-25 SR/SK? I have very competitive prices between a CDI FF4 with ball bearing upgrade and the Schaefer CF500 Snapfurl. Since they are so close in price I am interested in
1. Ease of installation
2. Ease of operation
3. Reliability
4. Product support (warranty, guarantee, parts support)
5. Would you buy again

Thanks, looking forward to feedback from this great forum.

Mike

Mike
Chariots of Fire
1981 Cat-25. sail number 2230
SR/SK Dinette Version

Edited by - on

zsonic09
1st Mate

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USA
32 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2013 : 14:05:23

I just bought an Alado. Good write up from Practical Sailor.
The install was very easy. Quality parts. Worth a look.

Edited by - on

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2013 : 17:03:52

I have the FF4 - no ball bearing. I did not install it - but my understanding is that it is a very easy installation.

I've had it for 2 seasons and have not had a problem. It operates flawlessly every time and I would imagine that it would work even better with the ball bearing upgrade.

I've not had any need for product support, so I can't comment.

Yes - I would buy again without hesitation.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2013 : 17:37:16

I installed a CDI Saturday afternoon, it took an hour because I kept double checking my measurements. The CDI internal halyard is an advantage over any unit that would use up your halyard... and probably require the fitting of a halyard restrainer. CDI is a good safe choice.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2013 : 18:45:26

Who can argue against CDI other than an offshore racer or a circumnavigator? (Yes, I'd use Harken, Profurl, or a few others to cross oceans.) Catalina has used CDI for years, and Frank seems to insist on quality hardware. So many users have praised the ball-bearing upgrade that I've long wondered why they sold (and Catatlina bought) their larger units without it. Their one-piece plastic foil is probably a simpler solution for DIY installations than segmented metal ones that require rivets or other connectors.

Edited by - on

Davy J
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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2013 : 06:16:03

I'll add that, since I have to lower and raise the rig every time I go out, there was no other choice. CDI has performed flawlessly even with all the up and down abuse.

Edited by - on

sfsmith
Navigator

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USA
123 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2013 : 07:55:00

I installed a CDI FF4 will bearings two years ago, and it was pretty easy. It operates flawlessly. and is easy to deal with when raising and lowering the mast. My only issue has been wear on the all-plastic bullseye fairleads. I replaced them with the metal-lined ones. I think CDI has updated its furling line kit since I got mine, but if not, I'd recommend upgrading any all-plastic fairleads.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2013 : 08:33:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Who can argue against CDI other than an offshore racer or a circumnavigator?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Anyone who uses the halyard to control sail shape.

A Harken Mark IV or Hood Seafurl 5 also use head and tack swivels to pull the sail more tightly when it is rolled up. This gives a better shape when using the system to reef. They are a lot more expensive though.

On Catalina 25 I think I'd look for a Harken Unit 00AL. I ran my Catalina 25 with hank on sails though, and think I prefer that for a boat this size.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2013 : 08:52:32

Don't forget that the Defender sale starts today, you might be able to find a good deal on roller furling.

Edited by - on

rrick
Captain

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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2013 : 09:09:48

I also have an aluminum Alado. I don't know how other furlers work, but I do know Alado is odd because the jib halyard dangles unused (so maybe rig a spinnaker with that line). Assembly uses one crew member and about an hour or two of time. Disassembly is less than half that. If you follow the manual exactly it is hard to go wrong. The drum is one piece, so you're disconnecting the forestay in one step. I like it ok, but if just one of my 4 Genoa's had hanks, I'd use that immediately after a spring launch until I miss roller furling or find a day where I'm so relaxed I will actually read instructions.

Edited by - on

szymek
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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2013 : 10:26:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 
On Catalina 25 I think I'd look for a Harken Unit 00AL. I ran my Catalina 25 with hank on sails though, and think I prefer that for a boat this size.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is a sweet unit and super easy to install. I installed it last summer and I'm supper happy with it. I've red a lot of issues with halyard wrap so I installed halyard restrainer right of the bat (cost was only $50 extra). Also not knowing age of my forestay (although it looked fine) i decided to replace it as well (cost was around 100$ extra).

If you're on the budget CDI is probably your best bet in terms of quality and ease of install. And if you have few extra $$ I would recommend Harken 00AL based on my personal experience.

Also at the marina few folks recommended "Simplicite Furlers" - apparently very simple and bullet proof furlers. I've never played around with one... but see lots of them in my neck of woods.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2013 : 19:42:52

We installed a 1st generation Harken Unit 0 a couple of years ago. Even newer parts are backward compatible, great tech support, very high quality. If we were shopping for new we'd certainly give the CDI a serious look-see.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4302 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 17:51:39

I installed a Harken Mark IV a couple of years ago and it works great. As mentioned it has swivels at the top and bottom and the sail rolls up really tight.

I always tie off both sheets and the furling line and then tie a short line around the sail just to make sure it doesn't loosen or unfurl during a storm.

Two features this furler has are two slots in the extrusion and a two piece drum that can be removed for racing. Having two slots allows you to preload the next sail before making a sail change and the removable drum allows you to use the extrusion as a racing foil.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 20:22:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 I installed a Harken Mark IV... it has swivels at the top and bottom and the sail rolls up really tight.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'm confused... Are you calling the drum a swivel? How is this different from another furler?

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2013 : 06:31:54

The drum is not the second swivel. The tack swivels independently from the drum. This allows the sail to be furled from the center out, which keeps it from getting baggy in the center. In other words on the Harken Mark IV (or Hood Seafurl 5) only the extrusion turns when furling, the tack and head only turn when forced to by the sail.

Well stocked sailboat hardware stores (such as Fisheries Supply in Seattle) have a good demo from Harken that allows you to see how this works in person.

The Mark IV and Hood Seafurl 5 also have much smaller extrusions than the "cruising" furlers from each company. That smaller extrusion makes for a more aerodynamic shape.

Harken tries to explain it here:
http://www.harken.com/furling/

On the Hood you can see it by comparing:
http://www.hoodyachtsystems.com/pdf%20files/253data.pdf
and
http://www.hoodyachtsystems.com/pdf%20files/sl707data.pdf

I have a new Seafurl 5 on my Pearson. Hood sold it to me directly at a very good price (about what a CDI or Alado woud cost) when my 26 year old Hood furler was having some issues. I'm impressed, it is a nice unit. The rigger who installed it also liked it.

Edited by - on

skiyaksail
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 09:26:46

I installed the CDI FF4 with the ball bearing option last spring on my tall rig, including a new forestay. I replaced the original Hood Continuous line furler, which was more difficult to remove than the CDI was to install. I drop my mast for the winter here in Colorado, the CDI definitely makes this easier, and works well with my A-Frame (built similar to DaveyJ's A-Frame), and I've had no issues at all with the furler, it works flawlessly.

Edited by - on

sailboat
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 15:38:53

Thanks to all. I will talk with The Sail Warehouse on one of their sail/furler package deals. CDI looks like the way to go. Thanks again.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2013 : 14:55:28

My 2 cents worth: Quiet Time has a CDI FF4 furler (non-ball-bearing) that is at least 15 years old and still in perfect working order. All of my other sailboats that had furlers were also CDI FF2's or FF4's. It's a bulletproof design, and the only parts that (usually) ever needs to be replaced are the furling line and the internal halyard, which like any synthetic rope eventually degrades due to UV exposure. For a trailerable boat, I don't think there is any other furler that is as durable and resistant to damage from accidental abuse, like being hit with a whisker pole, or even being run over by a car while lying on the ground.

Edited by - on

sailboat
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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2013 : 16:36:21

Thanks again to all. Through North Sails of Portland, Oregon I ordered the CDI FF4 with ball bearing upgrade and a new 135 sail. I hope to pick it up this Thursday on my way from Coos Bay, Oregon to Silverdale, Wa., where the boat is home ported. Wile doing that I will replace the wire rope halyards with rope (may have to change the sheaves) and install a new forestay.

The restoration and upgrade of"Chariots of Fire" continues.

Mike
1980 SK/SR

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2013 : 18:31:26

I think that most would say the CDI family is the most cost effective way to go. That said, CDI is not as good if you race, so think abut your objectives. I went with a Harken system as the cost delta was minimal and it provided more flexibility. Had cost been an issue I would have gone with the CDI. I have not regretted my decision but it was more expensive. When I was looking the cheapest route was with National Sail going with a sail and CDI furling system which cost far less that my Harken and sail . All are good, all are a long term investment so all deserve rigorous thought. My guess is all will serve you well, some maybe better some maybe less so, but none are "the" answer!

In my case I used a Harken furler and Ullman 135 head sale. Both have proven to have been bullet proof.

Good luck!

Edited by - bigelowp on 04/06/2013 18:36:57

JKBIXBY
1st Mate

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USA
38 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2013 : 11:25:59

CDI FF4, very satisfied and price is good

Edited by - on

RonE
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2013 : 05:11:26

I previously loved my CDI FF4 furler until it came to warranty service and replacement of a part. I had purchased the furler decades ago. At that time I was excited that it came with a lifetime replacement warranty. I immediately registered my warranty. At that time the warranty was free lifetime replacement parts. I do not know when they did it, but at some point the owner Tom Livingston changed the CDI warranty to 6 years parts. Anyway, I started developing 12 months ago a problem with furling and a metallic sound when it got jammed. I followed all maintenance and cleaning instructions without improvement. Inspection of the furler showed the drum outside metal case was warped. Also the older designed drum had a very small hole for the furling line to go through. The newer designed drum has an opening that is almost 40% of the face of the drum. I assume this is to provide less drag or chance of chafing the furling line on the side wall of the drum opening. This appeared obviously to be a warranty issue in the design of the original drum. Research online found that other sailboat owners complained the plastic bushing wears out and warps, as did the original bell housings on the FF4 drum. Inspection of my bushing looked ok.

Anyway, when I approached CDI's owner Mr. Livingston about warranty replacement at first he was helpful. Then he openly stated that he had been burned several times by warranty claims. He had lost all of my registration material and could not identify me as the original owner. He demanded my original purchase receipt from some 20 years ago showing that I was the original owner before he would honor any prior warranty. Without the original purchase receipt, he wanted to charge me almost $200 to replace the the possible defective parts.

Needless to say, at age 59, I could not find my receipt. Of course it is my fault not to preserve a 20 year old receipt. I guess it is my fault to expect the manufacturer to preserve the warranty registration as it is my fault to not better preserve the receipt. It is just I usually trust all sailors and have great luck in trusting sailboat accessory companies in honoring their warranty. I have never had to make a warranty claim on many items on my sailboat since purchase.

I caution anyone that is dealing with CDI to keep their receipts. For myself, I am hesitant to buy anything from this company due to my experience with Mr. Livingston, the owner. Sure 20 years is a good service period for a furler. Its just that I live up to my word and expect others to live up to their warranty. I will be looking into replacing my FF4 furler with a major brand such as Harken or other manufacturer that takes a sailor's word on purchase and keeps their warranty registration materials on file. Of course lesson learned, I will trust my wife to do better than me and keep my receipt. Right now I have an FF4 furler I would sell cheap to anyone who wants to deal with Mr. Livingston.

Edited by - on

sailboat
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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2013 : 09:40:12

Thanks for the info. Right now it works flawlessly and if it functions for 20 years that comes out to $70/year. I suppose there are worse deals.

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GaryB
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4302 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2013 : 18:12:23

Even if you had kept the receipt, most of the paper and inks the retailers use fade out after a few years unless they are kept in a perfect environment

It's ridiculous for a retailer to expect someone to retain an invoice from 20 years ago! Obviously Mr. Livingston didn't hang on to your receipt or warranty registration so why should he expect you to do it?

This kind of BS ticks me off. I'd ask him to show me where in the printed copy of the warranty from 20 years ago (if he even has a copy of it) it states you have to retain the invoice to get warranty service.

Realistically, how many people from 20 years ago even own the same boat or furler. The new owner probably doesn't even know they have a lifetime warranty and will never exercise their right. So at most he MIGHT have 50 or 100 people that MIGHT ask for a free replacement part. How much can the part you need cost Mr. Livingston? $50 - $100? Worst case he's out $10 grand over how many years? That's approx. 10 - 12 new furlers which he probably sells in a month or two.

In the days before the Internet a vendor could probably get away with this attitude for years before word got out to enough people to affect sales. I guess some of these old timers don't realize there is an Internet now days and one guy getting on one forum voicing a bad experience they had with a vendor can cost the vendor a 100 times as much in future sales as the warranty replacement part cost.

Take care of and honor a warranty you put out years ago and with the Internet the word would spread like wildfire of someone that does the right thing. People will flock to a business that offers good customer service.

When you are in business and offer a warranty on something you have to expect to be burned occasionally (doesn't make it right). That's why you have to build that into your selling price or write it off as a cost of doing business.

For me, having Mr. Livingston's attitude and customer service is a strike one, you're out permanently! No second chance!

On another topic, I got tired of having boxes full of receipts for my major purchases so I bought a Fujitsu SnapScan S1500 scanner. Ten (10) seconds to scan it and store it on a flash drive, DVD, or external hard drive. You can search and find any receipt in a less than a minute.

Edited by - GaryB on 05/30/2013 18:38:53

Voyager
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5352 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2013 : 19:55:03

I receive Practical Sailor Mag and as many know, they do not accept advertising, and so can be objective (subjectively). They have a section called "Where Credit is Due", where readers relate stories where sailors have personally appealed to vendors about products (can't find spare parts, gizmo broke after a few years, etc) and the vendors responded by replacing the unit from stock at no charge, or located demo parts from distributors. Typically, the vendors ship the parts or replacements at no charge, and literally surprise their customers with a "gift" of the replacement.
Each story is quite heart warming and redeems your faith in humanity.
I don't think the "gentleman" cited above will ever find a spot in this part of the newsletter.

Edited by - on

RonE
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 05/31/2013 : 19:52:00

Thank you all for your sympathetic response. I was feeling pretty silly and wondering if I had dementia for being unable to find my receipt. I like the idea of letting other sellers beware by placing an alert in Practical Sailing.

Edited by - on

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