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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

E-15 : has the Gov't slipped this by us?

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5352 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/29/2012 : 18:16:02

Recently I've heard that some states are allowing E-15 gas (15% ethanol) at gas pumps. Did I just dream that or did it really happen in October?

I ask because several of my small yard engines (lawnmower, leaf blower, etc) suddenly started acting up all at the same time.

I am NOT going to put that CRAP into my Honda 8. I will gladly pay an extra few bucks for <i> real </i>gas.

Just tell me, what Einstein thought this one up? Does it fall under the theory "if some is good, more is better?"

I also don't believe it was the EPA tre huggers trying to do good deeds. In fact I think it was big agri-business looking for a Gov't welfare check and driving up corn future prices!

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

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rrick
Captain

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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2012 : 18:31:06

yes, don't go cheap on 10 gallon expenditures, like a seasonal use of an 8 HP and a years supply for lawn equipment. Unless the law changed, pure gas can be sold at the premium octane pump.
http://www.fuel-testers.com/find_ethanol_free_gasoline.html

I don't think oil companies fought the e15 ruling too hard, seeing as ethanol raises octane numbers on cheap refined crude. Pass the savings on to the user? Naw.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2012 : 18:48:26

Yup--EPA approved E15 back around June. Interestingly, Iowa has disallowed it, last I heard, although their very own corn and ethanol production lobbies were most certainly what pushed it through EPA. (I guess they don't want it to hurt their equipment.)

Pumps should be labeled for E15--I think that's part of the EPA requirement. E10 has to remain available, since EPA says cars made before 2001 (I think) aren't supposed to use it. I guess it's up to the owners to figure that out...

I'll be asking lots of questions at the marinas next spring, and watching closely when I fill up my new Subie!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/29/2012 18:49:08

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2012 : 19:04:16

From Honda Marine...

Honda engines are designed for good performance and efficient operation using gasoline containing from 0 to 10% ethanol

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5352 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2012 : 19:15:12

The Connecticut Marine Trades Association and local states' marine associations got together with the United States Power Squadron and others to fight for labeling for auto and marine use. Not sure, but most gas docks and marinas around here are members. Nonetheless, it pays to check. I'll also ask the full serve filling station down the road whether their premium gas is E10 or E15.

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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2012 : 20:18:39

This is the stuff that gets me. Let's see, the world needs food, draught causes shortages, yet they let engines under perform and or get damaged . . . . . " what a country!"

The C25 uses only half a tank per season, the 17ft cc uses more and has a more temperamental engine. Better make sure my I read the fine print next season!

Edited by - bigelowp on 11/29/2012 20:19:36

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2012 : 21:30:46

E-15 pumps must be prominently labeled indicating that it is not for use in non-road engines or heavy duty vehicles engines, and that it is only to be used in cars built after 2001. E-10 must be available at any source selling E-15. It is not mandated by a rule or law, it is just allowed by a waiver granted by the EPA. Nobody has to sell it, and most existing stations won't upgrade their tankage to carry it. The oil companies weren't interested in it, the waiver allowing it was heavily lobbied by the ETOH industry. The EPA reviewed a lot of independent studies that showed that light duty vehicles in the involved model years were not negatively affected before granting the waiver and required that all of the other conditions be met. It cannot be legally sold at a marina, but knowing what you put in your tank is your responsibility

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rrick
Captain

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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2012 : 22:12:42

If your gas is new but contaminated with water because ethanol, for around $8 you could get a few # of anhydrous magnesium sulfate fertilizer. Then scoop some into a gas can, shake it (keep adding until it stops clumping), then decant the dry e-10 or e-15 into another dry gas can. Just removes water, doesn't restore old gummy varnishy gasoline. Also, never done it past bench scale or with non-reagent grade materials (everyday procedure in an o-chem lab).

I just checked that list and nowhere in So Cal is a pure gas dealer. Idaho had one every 10 blocks, and usually for only a quarter a gallon more (you bet I bought that stuff, horsepower baby).

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TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2012 : 04:22:37

Non-ethanol gas is all we sell at our Marina. And as long as I manage the place, it will stay that way.

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hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2012 : 04:38:42

Most small local airports will sell you AVGAS put in a can. It is 100 octane and called 100LL (low lead) Several of us use it for our small engines and my Harley loves it. Also, the shelf life is extremely long. Several airports now have self serve pumps where you can slide your CC and fill your can.

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2012 : 05:06:03

I buy white gas sometimes, Coleman Fuel. Expensive, but then I don't use much inland as I am and I don't go to the Marina. No question it is clean fuel.

To each...

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shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2012 : 06:45:17

I know the focus here is 10% versus 15% Ethanol... honestly in my car (truck) it'll run on E85 no problem, or any "mix" thereof. The thing is... doing REAL WORLD measurements... my fuel economy goes in the hopper! So, now don't laugh, but my #6000 Crew Cab, long bed, 2500 Silverado gas pickup gets about 14mpg highway (13.8 actually)... running E10 I get about 12.5mpg highway... e85, about 11mpg.

I tow a heavy horse trailer Spring and Fall. It's ALL playtime, no business, so we "prepare" for it by saving, and have gotten huge surprise when our MPG doesn't get nearly what I expect. Towing with pure 92Octane fuel, I get about 8mpg, 7mpg with E10, and it's painful to look with higher percentages than that. With numbers of MPG that low to begin with, it becomes a MUCH LARGER percentage of a hit!

Now I got a question... and I've heard mixed responses on this. My old (1982 vintage), 2 stroke 2.2 Merc (which runs like a top), will run better on "pure gas?" I know there are discussions of higher octanes, but I always was under the impression on 2 strokes the higher octane fuel could actually damage things.

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redeye
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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2012 : 07:02:16

I tried higher octane fuel on my 2 stroke outboard engine and it did not like it.. Revved up and then died.

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Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2012 : 08:27:59

the ethanol levels attacing components in the system is another issue. It may seem to run on the gas, but if the plastics and rubbers within the system are not specified to the 15% ethanol, then you are destroying the fuel delievery system.

Thanks for the reminder to keep a close eye on the pumps.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2012 : 08:57:20

I guess we are lucky on Canyon Lake, the marina sells ethanol-free gas.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2012 : 09:06:12

Higher octane has no benefit in an engine that has a lower octane requirement, nor does it cause any damage. Higher octane just resists pre-ignition, 'knock', better. Higher compression and earlier ignition timing increases the likelihood of pre-ignition, but they also extract more energy from the burn. Higher octane allows higher compression and timing; higher compression and timing produce more power, not the octane number.

E-10, or E-anything, always reduces fuel economy. ETOH has a higher octane equivalent but less energy per pound than gas, so ETOH mixes have less energy than gas. E-10 should reduce you MPG by about 3%, emissions by about 2%, CO emissions by 25%, and total petroleum consumption by 1%. I think you would be hard pressed to feel the difference between 200 hp and 205 hp. E-85 is sometimes cheap enough locally to offset my reduced economy and I see no difference in drivability when I use it, but I would have to tank up every hundred miles if I used it when towing.

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shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2012 : 17:49:11

I was stopping about every 200 miles with my 34 gallon tank, as it were.

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dmpilc
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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2012 : 21:19:21

Prior to E-10, we would regularly see 30+ mpg in our ford Focus. Now we're lucky if we see 28 mpg, so our efficiency loss is closer to 10%.

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5352 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2012 : 07:44:58

Your mileage may vary for other reasons - bad sensors or injectors, dirty spark plug causing missing - whatever.
So now I get it - adding ethanol to gasoline is like adding "filler" to ground beef or flour. It's just one more way that consumer product manufacturers can legally sell you less for your money while charging you the same or a higher price! I'm with Peter.

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shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2012 : 12:46:18

I've read a bunch more on ethanol, and it's true your MPG will drop in a flex-fuel vehicle... HOWEVER... and this is a huge deal... ethanol can be burned more efficiently than present designs, but because MOST vehicles have to burn gasoline as well, compression ratios rarely get high enough to gain back the efficiency lost (gas detonates at higher compression)... so you either A) get higher octane fuel (that doesn't detonate as you increase compression), or increase ethanol. The 2 articles (which I wish I had bookmarked) were talking about for fun race drivers switching to ethanol, instead of going with 100+ octane fuels.

Translate. If you could manually advance timing, past present standards on Flex Fuel vehicles, your compression could get up high enough, to gain back the lost MPG. The statements found that using diesel technology they could likely gain back the lost mpg. Even though there is less energy per ounce of ethanol versus gas.

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rrick
Captain

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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2012 : 13:56:08

One for you, one for me.

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mroettersr
Navigator

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USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2012 : 20:54:45

Try www.pure-gas.org for a list of stations and marinas that carry 100% gas (ethanol free).

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2012 : 22:09:54

Schnool, right on the money! Fuellie dragsters running methanol can run 12:1 compression with dual superchargers and no preignition. The new crop of super 4 cylinders (Ford's Ecoboost, don't remember the add names the other brands use) use direct cylinder injection with dual turbos and high compression - good HP and very good economy without boost and tons of power when you put your foot into it.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 12/01/2012 22:10:31

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2012 : 06:24:59

Well, I think I am gonna look for ethanol free for my outboard/snow blower/tractor/chainsaw, and I'll be looking for e15, or e85 for my truck and see what I can get MPG wise.

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