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britinusa
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Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 19:46:48

Awesome pic Tom, I hope you publish them in an album.

Definitely get my vote for pic of the season. I bet they make it into the mainsheet.

Glad nobody was hurt, close calls are much easier to share!

Paul

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 20:22:34

The up side is that the bottome looks pretty clean!

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redviking
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Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 22:52:56

I've been cogitating this one for awhile now. I'd sue or the occupants should. It may have ruined theory joy of sailing and made them forever scared of bridges. ***! I know that I am now! Next, I would like to know the regulatory agency that governs bridge tenders. Big ass earful there... Next, I'd total the boat. The hull to deck seams were never designed to withstand that. Hidden damage is more than likely. Next, I'd declare the underwear of the occupants... Had to throw that in... And finally stress, loss of use, and whatever else I can dream up. Very lucky nobody was killed.

Sten

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redviking
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Response Posted - 11/20/2012 : 22:53:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 I've been cogitating this one for awhile now. I'd sue or the occupants should. It may have ruined their joy of sailing and made them forever scared of bridges. ***! I know that I am now! Next, I would like to know the regulatory agency that governs bridge tenders. Big ass earful there... Next, I'd total the boat. The hull to deck seams were never designed to withstand that. Hidden damage is more than likely. Next, I'd declare the underwear of the occupants... Had to throw that in... And finally stress, loss of use, and whatever else I can dream up. Very lucky nobody was killed.

Sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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TCurran
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Response Posted - 11/21/2012 : 04:06:37

Sten, I somewhat agree with totaling the boat (heart vs brain). According to the folks there, it hung like that for over 30 minutes, pretty sure Catalina's engineers did not design the boat to hang like that. I have a surveyor coming by today and should know something by the time he's done. Depending on what he says, and what the bridge owners say, I might just have to start a swap meet thread. Hopefully they will do the right thing and keep the lawyers out of it, since it's a HOA not a government I'm optimistic.

Will check with my buddy and his girlfriend to see if they need new underwear, hadn't thought of that when I created a list of damaged parts....

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JohnP
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Response Posted - 11/21/2012 : 07:06:18

Wow, I think I'm scared of drawbridges now!

I had previously thought that transiting in my boat the narrow channel under a drawbridge at the Kent Narrows on the Chesapeake Bay was fun, but I'll certainly have my horn at the ready if I ever motor through there again!

I do recall that the bascule bridge operator at the Kent Narrows sounda a horn before raising and then before lowering the bridge. My boat was clear by about 100 yards before he lowered the bridge.

Tom - Glad no one was hurt other than the apparent trauma the accident caused.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 11/21/2012 : 08:07:07

They are required to sound a horn upon opening and closing. What happened this time? rom now on, I will have an airhorn at the ready. But my RAM Mic is always tuned to the bridge master while going thru... I'll be watching even more carefully now, although with a 60 foot mast, I watch all bridges closely anyway.

Sten

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DaveR
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Response Posted - 11/21/2012 : 18:05:12

I've been suspicious of bridges and their tenders for a long time. Been ignored by a few and had a couple semi-close calls but never dreamed (or had nightmares) this could happen. When Tom first told me I thought he might be kidding............

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/21/2012 : 19:31:57

My experience suggests the first rule is to be in close communication with the bridge operator from start to finish, showing respect for their constraints. If there's a line of boats, make sure they know you're in it--don't assume that since somebody called them, they'll watch for everyone else. When I talk to them, I mention who else is there with me--often it's boats that have not communicated. I even call them when I'm in the vicinity but not going through (such as when I'm driving a tour boat for the Mystic Seaport)--they appreciate all information. The operators of an Amtrak swing bridge here know that if they need to close very soon (trains have the right-of-way!), Sarge will agree to go through the "wrong" side so they can start to swing behind me as I go through.

Communication is everything.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 11/22/2012 : 08:42:08

First let me say I'm glad everyone was OK and there were no injuries.

Playing the devils advocate just for discussion purposes. Was there anything your friends could have done to avoid the accident? I'd imagine the boats were traveling slowly and every drawbridge I've seen lowers slowly. Could they have hit the gas, turned away, or gone into reverse to avoid being under the bridge as it lowered? Did they alert the bridge tender they were under the bridge when he started lowering it? It just seems that the whole situation had time to develop slowly allowing for time to get clear of the bridge?

Now, no longer playing the devils advocate. Looking at the pictures you posted, it appears by comparing the height of the person standing on the bridge to the height of the waterline of the boat above the water the boat is hanging approx. 8' above the water. Taking that info and looking at the arc the bridge would take as it lowered it appears your friends were near the far side (away from the pivot point of the bridge) when the bridge made contact with the mast so I'd assume they were trying to maneuver away from the bridge as it lowered?

Not sure why many want to start suing someone right away. If you get emotionally distressed by something as simple as your boat being lifted out of the water by a drawbridge maybe you shouldn't be sailing, or boating, or driving a car. Who are you going to sue if you make a bad decision and go out in weather that you're not capable of handling and you get distressed? You gonna sue yourself? The boat manufacturer because the boat doesn't have a computer that prevents it from leaving the dock if the weather might be bad?

As long as the HOA takes care of the boat in a fair and equitable way why drag the pain out for years while the lawyers drag this through the court system and empty your wallet. If the HOA takes care of it, be done with it and go sailing! Stuff happens! Deal with it!

BTW, after saying all of the above, you know what's going to happen. I'm about to get screwed on something and will be whining and complaining about how unfair things are!

Edited by - GaryB on 11/22/2012 08:42:29

TCurran
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Response Posted - 11/23/2012 : 05:11:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 Playing the devils advocate just for discussion purposes. Was there anything your friends could have done to avoid the accident? I'd imagine the boats were traveling slowly and every drawbridge I've seen lowers slowly. Could they have hit the gas, turned away, or gone into reverse to avoid being under the bridge as it lowered? Did they alert the bridge tender they were under the bridge when he started lowering it? It just seems that the whole situation had time to develop slowly allowing for time to get clear of the bridge?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Gary,
You can always look back and in hindsight play the "could of" or "should of" ... After talking with everyone that saw and heard the events (almost every boat in the area had just left the raft-up and was from our Marina), I believe my buddy did the best he could given the situation and actions of the tender.

Dave B,
Got your email about an article, will see what I can come up with.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 11/23/2012 : 10:50:13

Someone once called it the "retrospectoscope". It is very hard to establish the conditions and information available at the time without being influenced and biased by data acquired after the fact. I'm not against analysis, but escaping with neither injury nor loss of the boat is a very satisfactory outcome in my mind.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 11/23/2012 : 13:34:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TCurran
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 Playing the devils advocate just for discussion purposes. Was there anything your friends could have done to avoid the accident? I'd imagine the boats were traveling slowly and every drawbridge I've seen lowers slowly. Could they have hit the gas, turned away, or gone into reverse to avoid being under the bridge as it lowered? Did they alert the bridge tender they were under the bridge when he started lowering it? It just seems that the whole situation had time to develop slowly allowing for time to get clear of the bridge?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

... I believe my buddy did the best he could given the situation and actions of the tender...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Which is what I was trying to say after the "devil's advocate" part. My observation of the distance above the water and the arc the bridge would have to travel through to where the mast was struck indicates to me your friend tried to maneuver as far to the left as possible to avoid the bridge coming down on top of the boat.

The intent of my post was to stimulate some discussion on how we could all learn from this incident, not to point fingers.

Something can always be learned from an accident. Flying Magazine has always had an article called "[url="http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/i-learned-about-flying"]I Learned ABout Flying From That...[/url]". I learned a lot of things about flying from that series of articles. A few that saved me from making the same or similar mistake, and many that made me think about what I was about to do. Such as, what are the consequences of what I'm about to do? If this happens will it cause me to be in an accident if something goes wrong. How could I do it safer. Could I alert someone of my intentions before I do them even though it should be extremely obvious of what I'm about to do or even though I may have already announced my intentions once or twice? Would announcing it one more time help prevent an accident?

Maybe we should do something similar via this forum!

As an example, even though one boat called the bridge tender and announced three boats were passing through, maybe each boat should have called the bridge tender to announce they were about to pass through and were boat number 1 of 3, 2 of 3, 3 of 3. Each boat could also announce they were clear of the opening. The last boat also announcing there was no one behind them.

To relate it to my example above, as you and Dave said, there is no way to know all of the circumstances of each player in this incident. Was the bridge tender distracted by another boat, maybe one coming the other way? Did he look out his window and see three boats, maybe one coming the other way was in close proximity to the first two that had passed through the bridge, and he assumed all were from the same group? Did his phone ring and answering it caused him to lose count of the boats that had passed through? Was he texting? Was someone sitting in the line of cars waiting for the bridge to close in a big hurry and started honking, distracting the bridge tender long enough for him to lose count of the boats passing through?

Any number of circumstances could have caused him to be distracted or lose count. A 2nd or 3rd call on the radio announcing "Boat number 3 of 3 is about to pass through the bridge opening" (even though it should have been obvious) could have prevented this unfortunate incident from happening.

Your misfortune has caused me to think about this long enough that I came up with the scenarios above that I would have never thought about before. Would you have ever thought about something on shore possibly being a factor in a boating incident?

I've never ever passed through a bridge opening like this but you can bet if I ever do this incident will be on my mind and I may tick off the bridge tender announcing my intentions too many times but he's not going to close that bridge on me unless he wants to.

All of the above and probably more as I think about this some more is "What I Learned about Sailing From: A Bridge Closing"!

Just trying to stimulate some discussion!

Edited by - GaryB on 11/23/2012 13:42:56

DaveR
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Response Posted - 11/23/2012 : 14:32:51

In my opinion the end of it all is, The bridge tender has one job, and it needs to be done without fail. In my experience (we have A LOT of bascules on the east coast of FL) bridgetenders aren't interested in extra chat (tying up the channel) and they usually won't respond to you even if you're trying to alert them that you're behind the original caller or of someone elses situation. Be on your toes, stay as close as you can to the boat in front, be ready to bail. And then sometimes, as in Tom's case it goes wrong anyway.

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 11/23/2012 : 16:17:58

Maybe this will help:

http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/boa/3426859970.html

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JimGo
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Response Posted - 11/23/2012 : 20:02:46

Tom, I can't stop nervously laughing. I'm REALLY glad eveyrone is OK, and that Island Time survived! Wow...just wow.

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TCurran
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Response Posted - 11/24/2012 : 04:55:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 Maybe this will help:

http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/boa/3426859970.html

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Dave. Hopefully I get the survey early next week and have a quick decision by the insurance adjuster. Coming that way for the boat show Thursday, are you going to make it across the bay for the show?

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TCurran
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Response Posted - 11/24/2012 : 10:32:48

Here's a couple shots taken from the boat looking up at the mast while it was hanging:

Note the angle anchor light, the masthead was already ripped out of the mast.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 11/24/2012 : 19:12:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 First let me say I'm glad everyone was OK and there were no injuries.

Playing the devils advocate just for discussion purposes. Was there anything your friends could have done to avoid the accident? I'd imagine the boats were traveling slowly and every drawbridge I've seen lowers slowly. Could they have hit the gas, turned away, or gone into reverse to avoid being under the bridge as it lowered? Did they alert the bridge tender they were under the bridge when he started lowering it? It just seems that the whole situation had time to develop slowly allowing for time to get clear of the bridge?

Now, no longer playing the devils advocate. Looking at the pictures you posted, it appears by comparing the height of the person standing on the bridge to the height of the waterline of the boat above the water the boat is hanging approx. 8' above the water. Taking that info and looking at the arc the bridge would take as it lowered it appears your friends were near the far side (away from the pivot point of the bridge) when the bridge made contact with the mast so I'd assume they were trying to maneuver away from the bridge as it lowered?

Not sure why many want to start suing someone right away. If you get emotionally distressed by something as simple as your boat being lifted out of the water by a drawbridge maybe you shouldn't be sailing, or boating, or driving a car. Who are you going to sue if you make a bad decision and go out in weather that you're not capable of handling and you get distressed? You gonna sue yourself? The boat manufacturer because the boat doesn't have a computer that prevents it from leaving the dock if the weather might be bad?

As long as the HOA takes care of the boat in a fair and equitable way why drag the pain out for years while the lawyers drag this through the court system and empty your wallet. If the HOA takes care of it, be done with it and go sailing! Stuff happens! Deal with it!

BTW, after saying all of the above, you know what's going to happen. I'm about to get screwed on something and will be whining and complaining about how unfair things are!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There was nothing the C25 operator could do. Unless the approach was deadly slow, there is no way to stop in a situation like this. I too have spend a fair amount eating for bridges. Some bridge masters are better than others.

The reason I think this is egregious is that lives could have been lost. Involuntary manslaughter if luck didn't prevail. Sometimes a message needs to be sent. A mast and some rigging and that bridge tender will be back at the Legion telling the story about how he took out a blow boat... A few bucks from the HOA will insure a more quality hire next time.

Which begs the question, what government agencies govern bridge accidents and licensing/testing of bridge tenders?

Sten

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2012 : 22:16:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...what government agencies govern bridge accidents and licensing/testing of bridge tenders?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You're kidding, right??

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 11/24/2012 : 22:17:07

I would suggest that with the untold number of uneventful bridge openings and closing each year, that the tenders do a pretty good job. I am conscientious and attentive in my profession, but I have been sued three times for unexpected outcomes. One settled for a tenth of the claim, we won one, and the third was withdrawn by the plaintiff the day before court. All of them were inconvenient, took a lot of my time and failed show cause to change my future actions. If I were perfect I might demand perfection. I am not, and I only expect a high level of performance. and recognize that things sometimes just happen.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 11/25/2012 : 07:40:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...what government agencies govern bridge accidents and licensing/testing of bridge tenders?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You're kidding, right??

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, yes I was and you got it. CSX pays $23 an hour for a bridge tender. Nothing is indicated about licensing requirements. I have to have a TWIC card to be a captain, but I can run a bridge with nothing... Serious homeland security fail...

So if the only governing "agency" is Morgan & Morgan, then so be it... I have had my own rounds in robe governed rooms. It is ridiculous. And mostly a waste of time. But, if this happened to my vessel, heads would roll. Now though, I see life thru the lens of an owner of a much more valuable vessel. So, eh, I guess if it was a C25, let em go... Not!

Sten

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TCurran
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Response Posted - 11/28/2012 : 04:35:45

The insurance company didn't like the survey I had done (~$7200) so they were going to send an insurance adjuster but they're all up in the northeast. I questioned why they would send someone with little or no boat damage knowledge to assess boat damage. So instead they are sending a different surveyor???? At least the surveyor understands boats. But we're talking about a boat with a NADA value of $6500, they reimbursed me $700 for the first survey, about to spend close to the same for a second survey, to save what??? After talking with the insurance guy yesterday, I do not think they want to end up with a boat, it will cost them to much to physically take possession and work through the legal paperwork.

Maybe Sten is right, maybe it's time to call "Morgan and Morgan"...or at least call little bro the lawyer for a well worded letter on letterhead, kind of a "shot across the bow".

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 11/28/2012 : 08:39:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TCurran
 The insurance company didn't like the survey I had done (~$7200) so they were going to send an insurance adjuster but they're all up in the northeast. I questioned why they would send someone with little or no boat damage knowledge to assess boat damage. So instead they are sending a different surveyor???? At least the surveyor understands boats. But we're talking about a boat with a NADA value of $6500, they reimbursed me $700 for the first survey, about to spend close to the same for a second survey, to save what??? After talking with the insurance guy yesterday, I do not think they want to end up with a boat, it will cost them to much to physically take possession and work through the legal paperwork.

Maybe Sten is right, maybe it's time to call "Morgan and Morgan"...or at least call little bro the lawyer for a well worded letter on letterhead, kind of a "shot across the bow".

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Is this the HOA's insurance company? I'd want to know who was going to do the repairs and if they can do adequate repairs for the amount of the settlement before I agreed to the settlement. Do you get to chose the repair shop or do you have to go to one specified by the insurance company?

That being said, there must be something going on with the insurance industry.

One of the sales reps I work with got rear-ended a while back. The truck is a late model F150 Supercrew with something like 87k miles. The truck is on our books for a little over $15k. Repair estimate was $17.5k. The insurance company would not total the truck. Instead they had Ford build a new frame for it along with a new bed. The repair shop removed everything from the old frame and installed it on the new frame. How stupid is that!

Edited by - GaryB on 11/28/2012 08:48:41

redviking
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Response Posted - 11/28/2012 : 11:02:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TCurran
 The insurance company didn't like the survey I had done (~$7200) so they were going to send an insurance adjuster but they're all up in the northeast. I questioned why they would send someone with little or no boat damage knowledge to assess boat damage. So instead they are sending a different surveyor???? At least the surveyor understands boats. But we're talking about a boat with a NADA value of $6500, they reimbursed me $700 for the first survey, about to spend close to the same for a second survey, to save what??? After talking with the insurance guy yesterday, I do not think they want to end up with a boat, it will cost them to much to physically take possession and work through the legal paperwork.

Maybe Sten is right, maybe it's time to call "Morgan and Morgan"...or at least call little bro the lawyer for a well worded letter on letterhead, kind of a "shot across the bow".

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

For the people... Proactive is better than reactive... Always...

Sten

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