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Resealing Windows

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dolivaw
Navigator

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USA
109 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/24/2012 : 23:40:57

Well, it's begun... I've finally started resealing the Windows. This is a fun little project involving much cursing of all the former DPOs. Especially since leaky windows are probably the only reason for my rusted keel bolts.

Fortunately, I didn't find this window sealed with epoxy or 5200. I'm not sure I'll be so lucky on the others. Someone was thoughtful enough to seal the outer frame with silicon over the 4200 though. Two hours of painstaking scraping with a razor blade, heat gun and sander and I've removed most of it. Hopefully enough to get a proper seal again.

I'm really not happy with how the frame looks. Anyone know how to properly clean the aluminum without damaging it? The instructions from CD don't say much about it.

RonH
'81 C-25 SR/FK/Trad #2470

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2012 : 16:29:05

The best thing you can do with the aluminum frames is to send them out to the recycler and replace the windows completely with polycarbonate. I'm sorry, but many have tried to re-seal the window just to end up frustrated with windows that continue to leak.
You have to seal the window edge while you have the window out.
You could get the frames anodized, but I'm afraid that would be cost prohibitive.
I do not know for sure, but I think the problem comes from the glass being flat and the frames have to bend to match the contour of the hull.
Good Luck

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2012 : 19:42:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dolivaw
 . . . Someone was thoughtful enough to seal the outer frame with silicon over the 4200 though. Two hours of painstaking scraping with a razor blade . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ron, I've felt your pain. Seems like my DPO globbed-on as much silicone as he/she could - windows still leaked. Spent days scraping and swearing.

Yep, re-anodizing will put on a nearly new looking finish and protect from future oxidation.

Pain staking job

Edited by - OJ on 05/25/2012 19:44:24

iwillnotsubmit
1st Mate

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64 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2012 : 03:45:22

I just finished reinstalling all my port lights yesterday. When I removed them, they were sealed with a combination of polysulfide and a whole lotta silicon. The rubber trim was rock hard and came out in pieces. After I removed the glass from the frames (I broke one pane of glass), I began scraping off most of the sealant. The rest of the sealant came off with tolulene. I had new tinted lexan cut at a local glass company. I cleaned the lexan and the frames with alcohol before bedding the lexan to the frames with Dow 795, a silicon based product with very good adhesive properties. I cleaned the frames with a wire brush and steel wool to remove stains and blemishes, but they are by no means perfect. I had considered sending them out to get re-anodized black, but decided it would take too much time. Yesterday I masked the fiberglass around each window and laid down a bead of polysulfide on the inside edge of each frame. Then I seated the window in its hole, centered it and screwed the trim ring from the inside. I then went back the the outside of each window and made sure the polysulfide that squeezed out formed a seal around the edge of each window. About 20 minutes later, I removed the masking tape from around each window. In a few days I will test them with a water hose to see if they leak. I'll let you know the results. Yes it was a PITA, but I really want a dry boat.

Edited by - on

Novi
1st Mate

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Canada
59 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 08:53:45

I went through the same pain this spring with the CD kit, I found that each window had a different combo of goop from various historical attempts by PO's. Made me feel like an archeologist.

As for the frames - mine were looking pretty sad but I have already spent enough $ for this season. After removing the layers of hardened goop I got come CLR and a 3M pad and applied some elbow grease. The results weren't astounding but the aluminum perked up enough that it's no longer an eyesore.

There have been three big rains and no leaks so far, keeping my fingers crossed!

Edited by - on

Novi
1st Mate

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Canada
59 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 08:59:39

BTW - one of the tips I gleaned from the older posts on the forum was to drill 2 small drain holes along the outside edge of the frame channel where the glass and gasket are bedded. It made a lot of sense to me to give the water a place to go if (or when) the seal between the glass/gasket/frame fails.

Edited by - on

dolivaw
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USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 11:24:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Novi
 I went through the same pain this spring with the CD kit, I found that each window had a different combo of goop from various historical attempts by PO's.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's what I'm seeing too. On this first window it looks like they tried to conserve as much adhesive as possible and compensated with large quantities of silicon caulk across the top of the window. I don't think there was any silicon on the bottom.

I thought the adhesive was 4200, but I could be wrong. It's a putty like butyl tape and not rubbery like silicon. Goo Gone and a stiff brush work very well removing the residue after scraping the majority off with a scraper.

Edited by - on

dolivaw
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USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 22:38:48

#%@&! This ain't no fun. =p

I might have cut glazing channel a bit too short and used a bit too much silicon. What a mess. Exactly how much is a bead anyway?

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 22:58:23

I don't know if there's an official definition of a "bead", but I've always used about a 1/4" as a good diameter of the line of whatever you're squeezing out as a "bead". In general you want enough to give you just enough squeeze out and no more. If you lay down a mask of tape carefully around the outline, once the silicone has dried, you can razor knife it vertically down to your tape, and then lift away the cut off with the tape. Another trick I learned from Don Casey, that I wished I'd learned earlier.

Dunno if that's helpful or not.

Edited by - on

dolivaw
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USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 23:17:13

It's difficult to determine how much is the right amount in the channel, or in the track. Since the channel was too short the corners kept popping out. In attempting to get them back in position I ended up with silicon all over the channel lip on the glass. Very ugly. I think we'll put it on tomorrow anyway and see how that goes. More than likely we'll pull it out again after the rest of the windows are done and redo it correctly. Hope I can find a source for the channel... Maybe CD will have mercy on me.

Edited by - on

iwillnotsubmit
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64 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2012 : 05:20:17

Just wanted to let you know I did not use the rubber channel that goes around the edge of the glass that was included in the CD kit. I masked the inside and outside of each pane, installed it in the frame and used a razor to cut out the area that I wanted to have 795 sealer. I did not do it, but would recommend masking the outside of the frame too. When it was time to bed and seal the glass I turned to window frame face down with the glass in place and squeezed 795 between the pane and the frame. Then I turned the window over, with the outside facing up, and pushed the pane down to bed the pane to the frame. Then I filled the gap between the pane and the frame from the outside. I used a tool I found at Home Depot to fillet the 795 and give it a 'finished' look. The tool puts a 1/4" radius on the joint between the window and frame. I used 2 cartridges of 795 for all 6 windows. After a few minutes I removed the tape and let them cure for a few days. I will try to get some pics up later. I bedded the windows to the cabin using Life Caulk polysulfide. It took about a half of a cartridge to seal all 6 frames to the cabin. I turned the hose on them last night and no leaks!!! YAAAAAA!!!

Edited by - on

WesAllen
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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2012 : 19:40:22

I didn't use the rubber glass channel that came with the kit either. It was smaller that the old stuff. I went to my local glass (commercial type glass) company and they ordered me the right size rubber channel. That made the job a breeze for the glass installation. No messing with silicon this way either. They have not leaked in three years now. Getting off the old stuff is a different story.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2012 : 09:08:14

Have not tried this but on the RV forums they recommend using acetone to remove the last layer of silicone. Adhesives and other RTV solutions will not adhere to silicone so you need to remove any previously used silicone entirely before rebedding.

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dolivaw
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USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2012 : 14:27:54

I sanded the last of the silicon off. Should I also clean it with acetone? Doesn't acetone damage the fiberglass?

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2012 : 14:47:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Doesn't acetone damage the fiberglass<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Nope. Used in fiberglass clean up all the time. A better chem. is M.E.K because it evaporates at a slower rate. With all chem. use protection.

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dolivaw
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USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2012 : 15:20:13

Ok... cool. Haven't made it around to reinstalling yet. Looking into the option of having a professional reassemble the window. I'm sure I can do a better job than the first attempt, but probably not as good as someone that's done it a thousand times. =)

Edited by - on

dolivaw
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USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 16:49:52

Today I made the call to Catalina Direct and found out why I can't get these portlights reassembled properly. According to CD, Catalina made a few boats with 1/8" glass instead of 3/16". The glazing channel in the CD kit is made for 3/16". Since the glass isn't thick enough, the channel buckles in the corners. So... If you ever decide to tackle this fun project, I recommend measuring your glass before ordering the kit from CD.

I'm going to make some calls tomorrow and see if I can get replacement glass made at a reasonable price. I've tossed around the idea of trying an alternative approach to bedding the windows, but I'm pretty picky about doing things "The Right Way". I nearly always regret it in the end when I don't, especially with my limited skills.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 17:52:55

Ron,

If you haven't already called anyone you might try Binswanger Glass on Hwy 3 in Webster. The company I work for (RSC) uses them to replace the windshields in our company trucks. In fact, I just had my windshield replaced today.

Ask for Julie and tell her you spoke to me. I spoke with the tech (Jeff) that came out today about having them make me a new "lens" for my forward hatch.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 18:10:26

^^^Keep us posted on prices. I'd like to have all new lenses. Forward port is scratched and weak, lewmar ports are spider cracked, and cabin windows are hazy.

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Novi
1st Mate

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Canada
59 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 19:24:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Today I made the call to Catalina Direct and found out why I can't get these portlights reassembled properly. According to CD, Catalina made a few boats with 1/8" glass instead of 3/16". The glazing channel in the CD kit is made for 3/16".<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That explains a lot! I think I have 1/8 glass too. I did the best I could with the gasket from CD but I ended up using a whole tube of the grey goop sealing just 3 windows.

I didn't clue in when you were asking how big a bead of silicon should be... I just went ahead and used as much as was needed to make a seal - it seemed excessive at the time but I just wanted the job done.

Edited by - on

rrick
Captain

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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 23:06:32

No! Paint solvents just lubricate your razor blade as you work hard removing cured sealants. Get Marine Formula by DeBond in spray. If you can't wait for a priority mail delivery, Home Depot has a gel that works just the same: Motsenbocker's Silicone Caulk and Foam Sealant Remover (5200, like the foam sealant is polyurethane). Works by depolymerizing these two sealants. Only takes minutes of scoring and a few reapplications. I literally wipe up liquid silicone with a rag and pull away curled up strips of 5200. Damages Lexan, polycarbonate, and other BPA resins like epoxy, but gelcoat and layup resin is polyester so they're OK. Plexiglas and acrylic glass are PMMA, so they're OK too. You have to test a small area because BPA and PMMA are indistinguishable visibly, even Catalina Direct flips back and forth on their port descriptions using either Plexiglas (PMMA) or Polycarbonate (BPA).

This is from experience and DeBond's FAQ, which addresses plastic port windows.

Edited by - on

KiteKraemer
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191 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 13:37:55

I dint read this whole thread, but I can warn you not to over-tighten the screws when you put the windows back in. It will not only look bad (because the aluminum will bend) and it will also leak. -Kraemer

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dolivaw
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USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 13:40:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 ^^^Keep us posted on prices. I'd like to have all new lenses. Forward port is scratched and weak, lewmar ports are spider cracked, and cabin windows are hazy.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

$45 - $50 per lens and 4 - 5 working days.

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dolivaw
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USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2012 : 20:20:35

Well... Getting my windows replaced has turned out to be an ordeal. I decided to go with the vendor close to the marina, who was recommended by the folks that did the bottom job. I left one of my windows with him as a sample and asked for one replacement glass that was identical, but 3/16" instead of 1/8".

Over the past several weeks they've claimed their supplier lost the order and/or my original sample on more than one occasion. Every time I called they promise delivery within 'a couple days'. When my order finally did come in they had made two pieces instead of the one I ordered, but both were 1/8" instead of 3/16" as I had requested; they increased the price from $50 to $75 per piece; and they lost my original glass, which had the instructions written on the tape I had edged the piece with.

They were supposed to call back the next day to let me know how long it would take them to make it right, but after two weeks I haven't heard a word. I think it's fair enough to give up and move on at this point. Guess that's what I get for not listening to Gary in the first place. =)

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2012 : 04:06:41

Have you thought about powder coating the frames. It is really tough stuff and should last several years.

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dolivaw
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USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2012 : 22:12:43

Tomorrow's the big day... I get to pick up my new windows. Binswanger is charging me $45 apiece and they're installing them in the frames. I'll post pictures if I can figure out how. =)

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