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Dodger on C250?

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TakeFive
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Initially Posted - 05/07/2012 : 05:31:30

We got the season off to a great start. We splashed on Friday and sailed around a couple of hours to shake off the cobwebs. Then we headed 25 nm down the river Saturday for an overnight at Delaware City Marina (in the old part of the C&D canal), and sailed back Sunday morning. Since our only cruise opportunity last year was washed out by Hurricane Irene, it was nice to get off to a quick start.

As we were sailing back into the wind with temps in the 50s, I started thinking about one serious deficiency of the C250 - the lack of a dodger. It really isn't safe to sail with the pop top up due to lack of visibility, so that doesn't count as a dodger. I've never seen a real dodger on a C250, which I suspect is partly due to the lack of side decks, since a dodger would block access to the foredeck.

But this got me to thinking, would it be possible to design/build a semi-hard, semi-removable dodger for this boat? Could something similar to the current vinyl/canvas poptop cover be designed to provide a full-width dodger with extensive eisenglass for good visibility, and partial removability to facilitate the occasional need to go to the foredeck? It would seem that the midship side railings and the pop top's SS "U-tube" could form the basic substructure for a removable dodger. Existing snaps for the various canvas covers could be used for many of the attachment points. A few additional SS tubes might be added between the U-tube and midship reailing using bimini hardware to facilitate quick removal for going forward.

Have any of you seen anything like this? I have a few ideas that I'll share when I have more time, but in the meantime I'd appreciate hearing your comments on what you've done or seen others do.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/07/2012 05:39:42

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 06:43:17

I finally remembered to check the "Archive" box in the search. It looks like there are numerous archived postings on this topic, but all the picture links are broken. If anyone has any pics that they could re-post, I'd appreciate it.

Here's one picture link that is still working. I'd like to modify this design to have an eisenglass side extension all the way to the midship pulpits. However, the extension part should be quickly removable to facilitate going forward. With such an extension, I would also need to accommodate jib sheets and halyards going under or around the dodger:

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Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 07:28:12

That dodger in the picture looks more like a rain hood for the companionway than an effective dodger.

For me, I'd like a dodger that had sides that came back at least to mid cockpit because for the most part, the spray comes at me from the sides when going to weather usually from waves and chop slapping the hull abeam sending water up which the wind then dumps in the cockpit.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 08:21:08

Don, I think (don't know for sure) that isn't as much of an issue on the 250 since the freeboard is much higher. I stay pretty dry except in pretty ugly conditions.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 08:31:33

Yes, to clarify, a dodger that prevents spray would be nice, but the C250 seems to be a pretty dry boat. We are mostly fair weather daysailors, and I only remember getting one drop of water on me in the past 2 years. So the main objective is to provide a wind break for sailing close-hauled in 50-60 degree weather with 5-15 knot breezes (which translates to 10-25 knot apparent wind, which can be pretty chilly). A windshield-like thing for the companionway would get us 80% of the way there, since my wife can sit in the companionway while she operates the winches and sheets. A (zip-on?) extension from there to the midship pulpit could be a nice windbreak that enables more comfortable sitting in the front part of the cockpit.

I expect that sitting behind the wheel would still be pretty breezy, as it is on other boats with dodgers. But it is very possible to operate the wheel standing in front of it, and also the autopilot can take over to allow me to sit forward in the cockpit.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 09:03:11

If spray isn't an issue, then maybe your wife would like a warm comfortable jacket...

Edited by - dlucier on 05/07/2012 09:03:47

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 11:32:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 If spray isn't an issue, then maybe your wife would like a warm comfortable jacket...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
She has one of those. After a late fall sail on a friend's boat that had a dodger, we both thought a dodger might increase comfort on our cockpit when heading to windward on chilly days. Outerwear can, in theory, eliminate the need for all dodgers, biminis, etc., but sometimes less reliance on layered clothing makes moving about the cockpit more comfortable.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 11:47:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 
She has one of those. After a late fall sail on a friend's boat that had a dodger, we both thought a dodger might increase comfort on our cockpit when heading to windward on chilly days. Outerwear can, in theory, eliminate the need for all dodgers, biminis, etc., but sometimes less reliance on layered clothing makes moving about the cockpit more comfortable.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's pretty limited usage. I don't think that's sufficient reason to cause yourself all the trouble and expense of a dodger.

I always keep a couple layers of warm, wind-resistant clothes on the boat -- particularly in the early spring and late fall. I have long sleeve t-shirts, a "wind-shirt" (find them at a golf shop), a sweatshirt and a light weight foulweather jacket. I pick and choose which one (or combination) is the right one for the conditions and stay comfortable. If I need enough clothing to make moving around the cockpit cumbersone, the boat doesn't leave the slip. A pair of gloves doesn't hurt either. I have fingerless gloves that fit the bill. Since I don't have a bimini, I'm never on the boat without a hat. My Admiral's favorite place on the boat is the port side seat facing aft with her back against the bulkhead. She has a wide brimmed hat that protects her head and neck.

Edited by - John Russell on 05/07/2012 11:52:19

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 12:08:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 That's pretty limited usage. I don't think that's sufficient reason to cause yourself all the trouble and expense of a dodger.

I always keep a couple layers of warm, wind-resistant clothes on the boat -- particularly in the early spring and late fall...Since I don't have a bimini, I'm never on the boat without a hat. My Admiral's favorite place on the boat is the port side seat facing aft with her back against the bulkhead. She has a wide brimmed hat that protects her head and neck.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I value all opinions, and might ultimately decide that a dodger would be more trouble and expense than it would be worth. But until I reach that point, I would like to hear design suggestions from those who have installed or seen others install dodgers. I know that there area few out there.

I can tell you from first-hand experience that the clearance between the split backstay and the steering wheel is very tight, and there is a certain bulkiness of some outerwear designs that makes it absolutely impossible to fit between them. (And I am not a real big guy.)

Likewise, I could not imagine having a boat without a bimini. No hat will fully replace the comfort that it provides. I'm not sure that a dodger would prove to be as essential as a bimini, but I'd like to explore the possibility.

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/07/2012 12:10:10

John Russell
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 12:35:09

Sorry, kinda followed the clothing hijack.

As to design of the dodger itself, maybe you could use just the framing for the companionway tent and a couple of old sheets to play around with design options?????

Henk Zeil posted a photo in one of his travelogs a couple of years ago that showed a frame he made to put the the companionway tent on without lifting the roof. He used the roof as storage space when not underway. I have no idea how to find that photo again but maybe Henk will read this and know how to find it. That frame, as I recall, looked pretty simple but I don't recall the specific details.

Edited by - on

SEAN
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 13:48:51

I have thought about a wind break ..

my thought was white sunbrella attached to the handrail , then forward around the mast back to the other handrail .
then two smaller pieces for inbetween the handrail (both sides)

that should provide a nice block.. plus be fast to put up,
and small to pack away .
just step over if you have to go forward

i was figuring to use it while anchored .

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zeil
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 18:18:30

Here is the frame we made to keep the pop-top up with the hatch down. The advantage was during our year-long trip that the boat could be locked up without removing the pop-top. It also provided a dry storage space on top of the hatch and below the pop-top. Notice the forward leg which provides an "airspace", between the hatch in open position and the pop-top fabric eliminating sweating and mildew build-up. The legs fit neatly on the hatch-way deck-top.

This image shows the frame holding the forward part of the pop-top and location of the legs. We added a mosquito net made from fine netting and using plastic doorframe stops. The bottom part is made using 3/8 round and fitted with pieces of plastic waterhose around the corners. Effective and very simple to make...

Location of legs. Note the hatch legs need to be shortened by about 3/4 inch in order to open and secure the hatch

Hatch in closed position and can be used for storage etc. Note: the forward leg is removed when stored.

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willy
Captain

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USA
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 18:54:02

Weird as this may sound, a motorcycle helmet with a face shield makes a pretty good "personal head cabin". Teamed with decent foulies, you can deal with some pretty nasty conditions in remarkable comfort.
Willy

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 20:46:38

I can tell you from first-hand experience that the clearance between the split backstay and the steering wheel is very tight, and there is a certain bulkiness of some outerwear designs that makes it absolutely impossible to fit between them. (And I am not a real big guy.)

Switch out the split backstay and install a single backstay. Dramatic improvement in maneuvering room around the wheel.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/08/2012 : 11:22:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
...Switch out the split backstay and install a single backstay. Dramatic improvement in maneuvering room around the wheel.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I've been considering that, and had seen some of the descriptions of how it's done. I'd prefer to connect on the starboard side instead of port side, so that the port side is more open. I recall that a new U-bolt had to be installed, and proper backing was essential. Is there a reason why the existing U-bolt can't be used? (Maybe the stay interferes with the catbird seats?)

One other option I thought about today was a plexiglass fishing boat windshield for in front of the companionway hatch. I'll have to measure and see if one is available in the right size. Perhaps a snap-on attachment could be configured for the existing snaps at the aft end of the pop top that I have for the companionway cover:

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</center>

This would give us the ability to huddle just behind the companionway. Easier install and less expensive than a metal/eisenglass/Sunbrella dodger.

Fortunately we're approaching the part of the season where this won't be a problem, and I'll have several months to mull over the various options before the fall comes.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 05/08/2012 : 14:13:07

How about some kind of motorcycle fairing mounted on the binnacle? Now that's outside the box thinking.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/09/2012 : 19:39:23

I expect that this project will fall to the bottom of my list as the weather improves. I'm still open to design suggestions in case I decide to do something in the fall.

This was how the Admiral coped with the cold and wind on the way back Sunday. It made me glad I bought a boat with a nice, open cabin, since we could talk the whole way even though she was down below. You can see that my drop-leaf table really made the U-shaped dinette much more accessible:

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...and here's a pic that my boat buddy snapped on the way down to Delaware City. Unfortunately he had no viewfinder on his camera, so the picture wasn't very well centered:

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He also posted [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARzzgLldqTA"]a YouTube video of us passing him[/url]. As you can see, we had pretty gentle conditions for the trip down, although we made pretty decent time - we were able to ride the tide downriver without needing to use our motor at all to beat the reversing current. Shortly after passing him I pulled out my brand new whisker pole and left him in the dust. Later, I actually turned around and came back to him so I could get some additional pictures of him.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 05/09/2012 : 19:51:00

I think it's probably the angle of the photo but it looks like you have a lot of forward rake on the mast????????

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/09/2012 : 20:27:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I think it's probably the angle of the photo but it looks like you have a lot of forward rake on the mast????????
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
As I just mentioned in [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24328&whichpage=3"]another thread[/url], I have not rechecked the rake since splashing. I did check it just before splashing, since I had adjusted the rake. I also counted the turnbuckle turns very carefully and used Pythagorean theorem and to determine how much rake would change. (Measurements on the hard confirmed that my calculations were correct.) But lots can change when you take the boat off the stands, so I will recheck when the rain stops tomorrow. However, I do hope that what you see is some sort of parralax problem or optical distortion by the guy's camera.

Now that I think of it, there is one other possible explanation. In the picture we were almost DDW, which might tend to push the bow down and the top of the mast forward. The sail trim does not look like DDW, because I had trimmed things in and turned slightly upwind to prevent an accidental jibe while I divided my attention trying to take pictures of his boat.

Bottom line - I'll recheck and let you know.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/09/2012 : 20:35:55

I'm pretty sure it's optical distortion. I believe that the pic is just a frame-grab from the guy's video camera. Have a look at his [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARzzgLldqTA"]YouTube video[/url], and focus on his own mast from the 0:10-0:15 mark on the timeline. You'll see how severe the optical distortion (fisheye effect) is on his camera.

I'll still check my rake, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/09/2012 : 20:52:23

Definitely distortion. Here's another pic, which I didn't post because the genoa is luffing because of my inattentiveness (you can see me aiming my camera back at him instead of tending the helm):

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Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/12/2012 : 19:58:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I think it's probably the angle of the photo but it looks like you have a lot of forward rake on the mast????????
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The breeze subsided enough this evening for me to re-check the rake, so I got out my weight and hung it from the main halyard. With the boat resting on her lines in the slip, the rake is exactly 4", which is what I was targeting with my forestay adjustment before launch this spring. In my initial test (light to moderate breezes) the helm balance was very nice, as noted in [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24328&whichpage=3"]this thread[/url].

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 05/12/2012 : 21:46:19

Hey, get that fender stowed!

Edited by - Nautiduck on 05/12/2012 21:49:36

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/14/2012 : 06:53:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Hey, get that fender stowed!

What is that storage/netting you have hanging in the cabin? Do you have a closer photo and a part #??

I also like the openness of the cabin and my wife hangs out in there when its windy and cold too!! She also likes to just sit at the cabin entrance which affords good shelter from the wind. We also went with a folding table and it really makes the inside so much more useful.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have two big 12" teardrop fenders than I never forget to take in. But I seem to always forget to stow that little fender closer to the bow. Even yesterday, after your scolding

, we left it out while sailing. Here's a better (fenderless) angle. Unfortunately the genoa is luffing because we were DDW and I had to maneuver to avoid hitting the guy taking the picture:

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The netting was installed by a previous owner. It appears to be a grey vinyl mesh, almost identical to the mesh in the bottom of the sheet pockets that came with the boat. I do not know where it was obtained.

My wife also likes to sit in the companionway when the weather is chilly. It's really nice that the boat is small enough that she can release one winch and pull on the other one from one central position. If I ever really want to get serious about single-handing, I'll consider buying a Raymarine S100 wireless remote so I can control the steering from that position. (Note that river sailing requires a lot of tacking.) But unless I find a drastically reduced clearance price somewhere, it's too pricey for me at this point.

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/14/2012 14:24:11

dlucier
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Response Posted - 05/14/2012 : 08:10:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 If I ever really want to get serious about single-handing, I'll consider buying a Raymarine S100 wireless remote so I can control the steering from that position. But unless I find a drastically reduced clearance price somewhere, it's too pricey for me at this point.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When I purchased my Raymarine ST1000 tillerpilot some ten plus years ago, the vendor threw in a free remote for it. In all the years I've had it, I think I played with it twice, but other than that, I haven't discovered a practical application for it yet. Looking at the prices for the wireless remote, it appears it costs nearly as much as a tiller pilot!

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 05/14/2012 : 20:27:55

Rick, I wish a had a dollar for each time I left a fender hanging...

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