Association Forum - Catalina 250 MK II WK research

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Catalina 250 MK II WK research

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

LandlockSailors
Deckhand

Member Avatar

2 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/21/2012 : 08:59:07

Hi everyone

My wife and I are looking at a used Catalina 250 mk ii wing keel and have been doing a bit of research on whether it would be a good fit for us. We want to dock it most of the time in a local reservoir but have the option to trailer it to other locations. We have a 2010 Chevy Tahoe with the trailering package which should allow us to tow over 8,000 pounds. We're mainly cruisers but that doesn't mean we don't like an exciting sail.

Anyway being new to the forum we checked out a lot of the recent posts and we're hoping to get some feedback on what we thought we'd read.
1). The 250WK isn't really a trailer-able sailboat
2). Indications that the boat needs to be reefed at wind speeds over 10 knots
3). Issues with drifting to weather with a WK
4). Ballast needs to be placed under the forward berth

Like everyone we want to purchase a sailboat that is a quality build and is safe and fun to sail.

Some of the other boats we've looked at:
ComPac 23
Precision Boat Works 23
Seaward 26

We'd also be interested in knowing if those of you who own a 250 could get all of the money you've invested in your sailboat back, would you buy another 250 or some other sailboat.

Many thanks in advance for your thoughts and guidance.

LLS

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2012 : 10:57:24

I'll speak to some of the other boats... The Compac 23 is pretty, small, and a slug compared to the C-250. The Precision 23 is quicker and more spartan--a nice day-sailer, with much more limited space than the C-250. Build quality is fair--not great. The Seaward 26 is... fascinating--I'd like to sail one! But how much is it? Seaward generally never tried to compete with Catalina for the broad market--they went for a niche at a different price-point. (The Seaward 25, which looks to me like the same hull with a traditional wing keel and closed transom, is on the slow side.)

The C-250 likes early reefing because she performs best upright, and performs well in light air. The older, heavier C-25 is happier with the rail down, but not as happy in light air. It's generally easier to reduce sail from spec than to increase it.

If by "drifting to weather" you mean "weather helm" (wanting to turn up), that's reported as an issue by more of our water-ballast owners than our wing-keelers, and can be easily corrected in the WB boat by pulling the centerboard back a few degrees. But most of us want some weather helm, for safety and for performance.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/21/2012 11:00:26

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2012 : 11:25:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">LandlockSailors said:
1). The 250WK isn't really a trailer-able sailboat
2). Indications that the boat needs to be reefed at wind speeds over 10 knots<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The answer to #1 is well, sort of. Our C-250 WK was bought with the intention to day sail it. We didn't really understand the ramifications of that decision until we'd tried it a few times. It takes roughly 2-1/2 hours to launch the boat, from parking at the ramp, through rigging and then the launch. I'm sure that time can be beat, but we have a checklist and we tried very hard to stick to it, which added time. Then it takes about 2 hours to recover the boat and get it ready to trailer again. This is the toughest part, because you're already tired when you get back to the ramp, and you know you've got a couple of hours of work ahead of you. We timed this poorly a couple of times and ended up de-rigging the boat after sunset which just added to the stress. If you've had a bad day sailing (it can happen, see "reefing" next), the recovery will only make a bad day worse because you can add irritable to the mixture. After about half a dozen sails we decided to look for a marina. It's so nice to just step on the boat, cast off the lines and go.

The answer to #2 is yes. The boat sails best when flat, plus less heeling is better to keep my wife wanting to go. She's terrified when we get past about 10 degrees, over 15 and she's white knuckling, over 20, crying. We've never once sailed the boat with anything larger than our 110 jib, and we bought a 70% storm jib so we were able to sail in more inclement weather. We have several other sails, but other than getting aired out once a year, we've never seen cause to use them. We can do hull speed on our 110 alone (no main) in about 10 knots of wind. Bear in mind we have a tall rig, so we have more sail up than a standard rigged C-250.

#4 Ballast. We've adjusted the ballast several times. The boat came with 3 50# bags of sand in the bow, which I replaced with 250# of lead. I traded that for 150# of bench weights which seems to be about right when I've got my water tank full. I plan on installing a 32 gallon water bladder at some point (and removing the weights), which will give me about 350# of ballast in the bow when my 13 gallon standard tank is full. Since I mounted two deep cycle batteries in the stern as well as a 4 stroke outboard on a scissors mount, the amount necessary has changed.

If I could get all my money back, hmm...dunno. I really like my C-250, but if the planets aligned, I'd be sailing a Gemini 105MC into retirement. That probably doesn't really count, they're two entirely different boats and almost 10' different in length. I will say this, if I lived on a lake and had my old San Juan 21 and my C-250 at the dock, I'd probably sail the SJ more than the Catalina. The same would probably be true if I had my old Venture catamaran for that matter. Simplistic sailing at it's best, and a kick in the pants to boot. I've often thought about selling the Catalina and looking for a 18-20' catamaran like a Sol Cat. Rita (my wife) is a reluctant sailor, so she likes to go sailing only occasionally. With a big cat, I could go sailing whenever I wanted, the rigging, launching and recovery takes a fraction of the time (I could launch my Venture in 25 minutes or so, and recover in less). I could also sell my giant F-250 and get another smaller truck to replace it with.

Hope this was helpful.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2012 : 12:41:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by LandlockSailors
 1). The 250WK isn't really a trailer-able sailboat
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I would say that's a true statement if you looking to trailer it as David described above. I think of my boat as transportable on a trailer but I launch her in the spring with a Travelift and retrieve her in the fall the same way. I think the consensus here is that if you're looking to trailer the boat a lot, the water ballast would probably be the better choice. You lose a bit of headroom below however. In short, the WK is not really a "trailer-sailor", just a boat hauled around on a trailer. The rigging issues David referred to exist for the water ballsasted boat as well.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">2). Indications that the boat needs to be reefed at wind speeds over 10 knots<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> It's as Dave (Stinkpotter) described. I reef between 10 and 15 degrees depending on how I feel and the general conditions. It's not because the boat can't handle it, but rather because I don't really like sailing with the rail in the water. I can make hull speed with a reefed main and shortened headsail So the argument that you go faster when heeled over hasn't been true in my experience.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">3). Issues with drifting to weather with a WK<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Not sure what you mean here. It's been said that the wing keel, in general, don't point as close to the wind as a fin keel. I don't really know if that's true and it doesn't make any difference in my sailing enjoyment so I never worry about it. Besides, a fin isn't an option on the 250.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">4). Ballast needs to be placed under the forward berth<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I have additional ballast under the V because my previous owner put it there. Others that have sailed their boats with and without it can speak to the performance both ways. I think it's done to because the added weight in the cockpit cause the stern to squat a bit so she doesn't sit flat on her lines in the slip. I would imagine that if the original designed were really that flawed, Frank Butler, et al, would have modified the design since the hull was first laid. I will say that the 250 has a bit more freeboard than the C25 and other boats of her size. That helps with headroom inside but, the trade-off is the hull catches more wind and might get pushed around a bit more. Bringing the bow down a bit helps that issue a bit. But, only a little bit.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Like everyone we want to purchase a sailboat that is a quality build and is safe and fun to sail.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's precisely why I bought a Catalina 250.

Edited by - John Russell on 04/21/2012 12:42:21

mhartong
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2012 : 16:58:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by LandlockSailors
 
We'd also be interested in knowing if those of you who own a 250 could get all of the money you've invested in your sailboat back, would you buy another 250 or some other sailboat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I would buy another C250. I'm a firm believer in getting the smallest boat that will accommodate, not the largest boat that I can afford, and one that is suited to the type of sailing available to me.

Part of It is a matter of economic reality. It takes twice as long to earn the money for a $100,000 boat as for one costing $50,000, and 10 times as long if the price tag is $500,000. The larger the boat, the more you pay for fuel, dockage, insurance, rigging repairs, sails, haul-outs, bottom paint. These higher costs are not nominal. A bigger boat is a big-dollar depreciating asset, soaking up additional dollars for dockage, insurance, and maintenance.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2012 : 18:59:48

Having been on a WK C250, I would be sorely tempted to change from a WB. However, having now launched JD probably nearly 50 times and enjoyed the sailing in skinny waters around Florida, it would be a mistake.

Different venues, different docking options would change that. For now, glad we have a WB.

I would still have to duck down inside a WK.

Paul

Edited by - on

Sailor Vic
1st Mate

Members Avatar

56 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 06:53:05

">We'd also be interested in knowing if those of you who own a 250 could get all of the money you've invested in your sailboat back, would you buy another 250 or some other sailboat."<

--

Ten years ago I purchased a brand new C250wk for our nearby lake.
I very much enjoyed it for about two years and then wanted to go bigger.
So I sold it and purchased a brand new Catalina 34WK.
Enjoyed and owned it for about 7 years however got tired of driving 3 hours each way to be sailing in usually cold weather (San Fran Bay) and so sold my beloved C34.

At that point I had $85,000. to buy whatever I wanted and asked myself a lot of questions. The less maintenance the better. I call my 2005 C240WK my "Tupperware" boat as there isn't any wood on the exterior to maintain. The ease of getting in an out of the water is another plus for me.

I did some research, went to few boat shows and then it hit me.....my former Catalina 250WK was "perfect" for me (price was not a consideration) and within 3 months of actively searching online had found my new (to me) 2005 Catalina 250WK with tiller (my first one had a wheel).

So yes, I most certainly would and did buy another C250WK.

--

One thing different this last time is that I didn't purchase a brand new Catalina as although I do feel that Catalina makes a nice boat I didn't enjoy feeling like I was their quality control person with either of the 2 brand new Catalinas that I had purchased previously.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 07:34:23

Landlocked, where will you be sailing?

Edited by - on

DavidCrosby
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 09:28:13

I have a 2002 C250 WK. I am beginning my third season with this boat.

Like your username implies, I am very landlocked as well. I sail at Carlyle Lake, IL. There are 3 "in the water" marinas on the lake and then the club at which I sail out of, Carlyle Sailing Association (CSA). CSA is a "dry sail" club. All boats live on their trailers fully rigged and pretty much ready to go.

While I would love to have my boat in a slip and ready to go on a moments notice the cost of that luxury is far more than that of CSA (approx. $2,800/year vs. $700/yr).

I have spent most of my life sailing high performance day sailors. When the kids came along, I switched to a classic Morgan 30, which my father and I restored. I sailed that boat for several years and then switched back to a high performance day sailor and a few years later ended up with the C250.

I absolutely loved the Morgan 30. If you want a boat that you can sail into higher wind strengths without reefing, this one fits the bill. The Morgan 30 would put her rail down and then would track like a freight train.

I sold the Morgan for a few reasons:
1) Cost to operate. I moved the boat to a marina on the Mississippi River to dramatically lower my marina fees as well as having the boat closer to home. To simply move the boat 80 miles cost over a $1,000. The costs were endless and pretty much always required the support of the marina operation.
2) I had an itch to travel but felt like I could not go anywhere, even though being on the Mississippi offered the ability to go anywhere in the world by water. Lack of time or cost to bring the boat back home was prohibitive.
3) Ultimately, I switched back to the high performance day sailor and traveled to regattas all throughout the central US. I made this move to get back to CSA and to get my daughters involved in the club's junior sailing program.

The high performance boat did not really work for my wife, so we started looking for the largest sailboat with a cabin that CSA allowed. The Catalina 25, Catalina 250 and Hunter 260 fit that bill. I like the style of both the C25 and C250 better than that of the Hunter. I also think Catalina builds a better boat.

I was initially attracted to the water ballast boats, because I really did not have the proper tow vehicle. Ultimately, the headroom of the C250 WK won. There is a significant difference in headroom throughout the boat between the water ballast and wing keel models.

Either boat is trailerable. The WK will require more of a tow vehicle than the wb if you are going to travel any significant distance. If you can find an arrangement like CSA and you will mostly stay put, I would say go with the WK. If your plans are to tow on a regular basis and headroom is not a concern, then the wb version is probably your best bet. Also, you need to consider the launch ramps you plan to use. The WK will require a longer and deeper ramp. Also, note that the stock trailer tongue extension is not really long enough. There are two of us that dry sail C250 WK boats at CSA and we both needed to extend our extensions by about 2 1/2 feet.

Regarding weight in the bow. It is necessary for the WK as well. I have two batteries under the V Berth. I notice a difference in weather helm simply depending upon whether the water tank is full or not. I would not consider this a problem. Simply add weight in the bow.

Regarding reefing. Keep the boat flat. If you sail with too much heel you just end up fighting the helm and you don't go any faster. Reef the sail and enjoy yourself. I usually reef when the wind is 13 or above.

Regarding sailing performance (pointing ability). The only way you will ever notice a difference is if you are racing. If you are a serious racer, then there are better choices. If you want comfortable pleasure sailing, sail on a day when the wind is 8 - 12 and you won't be disappointed.

Would I buy the C250 WK again? I bought the C250 WK over the other choices for some very specific reasons at a very specific point in life. The boat we bought was going to have to sleep two teenage girls and my wife and I comfortably on a regular basis. My wife and one of my daughters are both a bit claustrophobic. For that very reason the C250 WK won out.

Edited by - on

LandlockSailors
Deckhand

Members Avatar

2 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 19:06:22

Hello everyone

Thank you all so much for all of the great feedback and insightful information on the C-250. We've spent the better part of this weekend discussing your comments and thoughts.

We are indeed landlocked, but fortunate to live in Colorado. While we don't have a ton of sailing options we do have some fine reservoirs near by. And does the wind howl here at times! This is one of the reasons we were wondering about the early reefing.

I have to agree with you that the Seaward is crazy expensive (75 + used) almost as much as a Harbor 25 - my dream boat (100 + ). So these two are no more than pin-up boats now, nice to look at but not obtainable.

We had hoped to be somewhat gypsy sailors going to a variety of different locations for weekend sails but it sounds like the C-250 isn't that kind of craft. Spending over 5 hours rigging the boat does not sound like a fun filled weekend. My wife also isn't interested in sailing as frequently as me, so I was encouraged to read that that the C-250 can be single-handed, but if it takes this long to rig with two people I might just be able to launch before I'd need to pull her out again.

Great information on the additional ballast and love the additional batteries idea. I'd never heard of needing more ballast in front of the keel so it now makes much more sense. We were originally looking at a WB version but the headroom was a real deal breaker. We're also a bit claustrophobic.

I read the book "Manning up in Alaska", it's about a couple who sail up the West Coast to Alaska on a recently purchased Catalina (a 47 I think). Anyway they had so many problems with the new boat I couldn't believe it. He never said anything but good things about the manufacturer. I figured that this meant two things. First don't expect a new boat to be perfect, so maybe a slightly used boat might have certain benefits. Secondly he had this long "love affair" with Catalina Yachts so they must be a pretty good builder. This has been echoed by several here and is one of the key reasons we've been looking at the C-250.

Once again thanks for spending your time to respond to our questions!

Eric

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 20:02:34

Why not look at the C25? I have an '89 wing keel and love it. I can go where most power boats go without too much worry of hitting bottom. Draft is 2' 10" and the boat is stiffer than a C250.

If you get a standard rig C25 you won't have to reef as early. I've ponly reefed once in 4 years and it was blowing close to 20 knots. 10 -15 is a blast with a 150 genoa and a full main.

In my opinion there is plenty of room inside. It's not as open as the C250 but still very usable.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 20:48:24

I'm not sure why so many people think that early reefing is a detriment. All it means is that the C250 needs less sail area than heavier boats, and has a lot of reserve power available for light wind days. Maybe a better way to think of it is for a single reef to be the default sailplan for normal healthy breezes, and you'll unreef on occasions when the wind is light. I know we often store the mainsail in the reefed state.

I personally don't mind heeling, but for a lot of people sailing flat is more comfortable, and the C250 is perfect for that. Sailing flat is definitely more efficient, as I have had several occasions when reefing led to an INCREASE in SOG (in addition to the usual benefits of less rounding up and more comfortable conditions).

I think 25 feet is a very nice size. Just large enough to do an occasional weekend, but small and simple enough to make for quick getaways for daysails. For confined waters that require frequent tacking like inland lakes and rivers, a larger boat can be a pain to maneuver.

I've trailered enough boats to realize that it can really take the fun out of the day. If you can find a slip or mooring for a reasonable price, it really enables you to enjoy the boat more. The only way I would consider trailering each time would be a dry marina where they store your boat onsite in a fully rigged state. Dropping/raising the mast each time would be hopelessly difficult IMO. But there are people who do it, and the C250's modified B&R rig makes it about as easy as it can get (though still too much trouble IMO).

Edited by - on

Johnnybob
1st Mate

Members Avatar

32 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2012 : 03:40:34

My wife and I purchased a 1998 250 wing keel tall rig in September of last year. We enjoyed looking and spent several months shopping for boats in our area before settling on the 250. We are inexperienced sailors and our decision was based mostly on esthetics. My wife (me to) really liked the head room and the open feeling with the hatch slid back and propped up you feel more like you are out doors in the salt air and sunshine, some boats we looked at felt more like we were in a tunnel, the cat bird seats were also appealing.
We have a trailer and a 3/4 ton diesel 4 wheel drive truck that I have for work so trailering and launching is not a problem but I would not want to launch and retrieve the boat every time we sail. I installed a mooring anchor near the city marina and we trailer and launch a small dinghy when we go to the boat and leave the dinghy at the mooring ball when we sail.
I do like the fact that I can trailer the boat home and have it in the yard to do maintenance etc. or get it out of the water if a hurricane threatens or to trailer to other locations for vacation sailing.
The PO had put 4 50 pound bags of sand in the forward berth and they are out of sight and out of mind. They have not been out of the boat since I've owned it so I can't compare before and after. But if the boat is kept under 20 degrees of heel there is very little weather helm.
I do find it desirable to reef and to double reef over 15 mph but I have a tall rig and the first reef point gives me the same amount of sail as an unreefed standard rig.
To reef the sails I have installed a two line reefing system for both the first and second reef points and I am able to reef while under sail in about a minute without leaving the cockpit. And I actually enjoy doing so.
The overall quality of the boat seems good to me. My boat is 14 years old and still feels like a new boat.
After we bought the boat I became aware of and concerned with the same issues you are asking about and was afraid that I had made a mistake in my purchase. 3 months ago after having the boat for 3 months if I could have gotten back the money I had invested I would have sold it and bought a Catalina 25. After sailing the boat and getting used to it and learning what to expect form it I think we got lucky and would not trade it now.
For me the best feature that came with the boat is this forum where the friendly knowledgeable advice, information and experience has been invaluable.
Good luck with what ever you decide.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2012 : 15:06:51

You mentioned the Precision 23... I've suggested to several people that a boat like that is far better for "trailer sailing"--rigging, launching, sailing, retrieving, and unrigging--than the typical 25-footer. The difference is greater than the difference in length sounds.

That said, we had a 17' Daysailer--very simple to trailer-sail, but we got tired of that routine quickly. The moment we got her into a little marina, our use of the boat skyrocketed. It's great to be able to step aboard and go! But I can understand your interest in exploring different lakes/reservoirs in Colorado--and I know about the wind on lakes there! (I've flown a Hobie 16 hull a good 6'+ up on Steamboat Lake--8100' up.)

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.