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Halyard Restrainer

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szymek
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Canada
209 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/09/2012 : 14:35:19

Hi Folks,

I have 1985 Catalian 25. I'm finally upgrading to roller furler (I've had the boat for 4 years).

Is the Halyard Restrainer really needed?

I guess i can put it on as preventive measure, but I need to plan for that. As it seems to be with the halyard restrainer the luff length will be slightly smaller. So i would need to take that into account when ordering the new sail. Now i'm just not sure how much though. ahh.

I'd like to get your feedback on it.

Daniel
Shy Tuna
1985 C-25: SR/FK/TR #4838

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2012 : 15:36:36

Hi Daniel and welcome!

I went through this issue just last year. I actually replaced a Furlex with a Harken.

I think design dictates need. The Furlex did not have a restrainer. With the Harken I experienced halyard wrap first time out. Went up the mast and installed a restrainer - no more wrap.

The addition of the restrainer did, however, raise a new issue. After we decommissioned the boat last fall, I noticed how much pressure was being exerted on the foil while resting (horizontally) against the restainer. So much so that it slightly bent the swage fitting on the top of the forestay. This explains why some people hold the furling assembly off at an angle when raising/lowering their mast.

As I am in the middle of building a gin pole, I was hoping to attach the bottom of the furler to the end of the pole. I may now be forced to use the foresail halyard.

Edited by - OJ on 02/09/2012 18:27:48

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2012 : 18:41:33

Alternative

See http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22724 for the discussion

Edited by - on

szymek
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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2012 : 20:16:04

Thanks OJ and Dave.

I've had this Catalina for the last 4 years, and i just stumbled on this forum. I'll definitely keep on coming back.

This boat has been rigged with just hank on and I'm now converting to furling system. During the boat show I've placed an order for Harken unit 00AL. I'm super excited about that.

now that I know that I will need the restrainer I got another headache. I'm also getting new headsail as the old one was not worth doing the conversion. So adding restrainer will change the luff length a bit as the swivel won't go all the way up now. I need to run it by my sailmaker to see if they can estimate that based on other work they've done. This is bit of learning process for me. :-)

I don't mean to derail my own thread... but i'm also going between sunbrella vs uv protected dacron (for leech and foot). Any recommendations??? i know sunbrella will add wait and will impact sail shape in lighter winds... but will it be that much of an impact???

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2012 : 20:58:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by szymek
 Thanks OJ and Dave.

I've had this Catalina for the last 4 years, and i just stumbled on this forum. I'll definitely keep on coming back.

This boat has been rigged with just hank on and I'm now converting to furling system. During the boat show I've placed an order for Harken unit 00AL. I'm super excited about that.

now that I know that I will need the restrainer I got another headache. I'm also getting new headsail as the old one was not worth doing the conversion. So adding restrainer will change the luff length a bit as the swivel won't go all the way up now. I need to run it by my sailmaker to see if they can estimate that based on other work they've done. This is bit of learning process for me. :-)

I don't mean to derail my own thread... but i'm also going between sunbrella vs uv protected dacron (for leech and foot). Any recommendations??? i know sunbrella will add wait and will impact sail shape in lighter winds... but will it be that much of an impact???
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I went from hank-ons to a Harken MArk IV last June and it makes sailing solo sooo much easier. I will never go back.

I bought my 150 used off this site and it has a a Sunbrella cover on it. I haven't noticed ANY issues with sail shape. In fact it seems to be better than my old hank-on.

I have a halyard restrainer and I can tell you that it is needed. Mine is mounted pretty far up and doesn't seem to get inthe way much. My rigger suggested not to use the restrainer Harken sells as it chafes the halyard when the furler flexes while sailing. I didn't fully understand what he was talking about but went with his suggestion.

Edited by - on

panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2012 : 22:52:40

I have Hood furler and what I did was put a short pennant on the bottom of the luff. This allows the swivel to go the the top of the mast and no halyard wrap.

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 06:41:39

My 150 has a white stick on UV protector that is coming loose. It is in the sail shop as we speak getting a pacific blue sunbrella UV protector put on. The white was looking dirty.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 07:41:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by szymek
 I've had this Catalina for the last 4 years, and i just stumbled on this forum. I'll definitely keep on coming back.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Please do, and welcome aboard! Register your C25 with us and consider joining the Association....There are some great benefits to do so.....and we have a cool burgee you can fly as well......

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 09:59:28

I went with UV resistant Dacron. The sailmaker said the thread will die before the sunbrella anyway so why bother with sunbrella? The Dacron looks better, hurts performance less and outlasts the thread... and that is all you need.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2012 : 09:27:46

Ok, This is my own experience but I will never buy a new headsail with any cover again. These covers either sunbrella or dacron will never last as long as your sail leaving you with a problem 7-10 years down the road when it fails but the sail itself is still good. Sail makers want $300-$400 to replace the cover, Not worth it on an older sail. Another reason is the added weight, My headsail without the cover will stay full in very light wind where as my other headsail with the Dacron cover would have collapsed. I hardly ever need my drifter now. Ordering a new sail without the cover will also cost you less. My suggestion is to go without the UV cover and get a zip on cover. It takes only a few minutes to put on at the end of the day and I love it. I got it here. http://leesailcovers.com/Jib_Sock.php

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2012 : 09:43:38

I am removing my worn UV strip and going with zip sleeve this year after getting a similar high quote for replacement. It seems a far more reasonable approach to me.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2012 : 10:15:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 I will never buy a new headsail with any cover again. These covers either sunbrella or dacron will never last as long as your sail leaving you with a problem 7-10 years down the road when it fails but the sail itself is still good.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When I replaced my genoa a couple of years ago, I went with a Dacron cover as this was on my original headsail and that sail lasted at least 15 years (maybe closer to twenty) with the original cover until I shredded it in a blow. Since it lasted that long, I again went with the Dacron cover.

With a sock for my C25 from Leesails pricing out at $235.00, it's not exactly cheap. Add the extra halyard (and weight aloft) and masthead sheaves, it starts getting up there. Their [url="http://leesailcovers.com/Jib_Sock.php"]sock demonstration video[/url] doesn't exactly paint an ease of use picture.

I have a genoa with an integral cover, not for optimum sail shape or light air performance, but rather for ease of use and convenience. That's what roller furling is all about. Adding a sock to the routine just takes away from that simple convenience.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2012 : 10:47:10

Don, your right about the demo video. I don't know why they used that woman, A total klutz but trust me it isn't like that at all Its more difficult to put the mainsail cover on than the sock. Spare halyard is needed but many have them, Spinnaker, Asymmetrical or like me its used for my Drifter. I believe 'Voyager' is experiencing this very problem with his UV cover on another thread.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2012 : 12:00:33

Thanks again! I will definitelly register my C25 here and I will join the association. I want to see forums like this keep on going!

In terms of the restrainer: the idea of the block attaching to the swivel and main sheet to keep tension sounds interesting. I will be looking into that. At least i have 2 options now.

In terms of the sail: My sailmaker told me about the sock. I did not even consider it due to added cost of additional halyard, block, etc. Also i've sailded with hank on for last 4 years and right now i'm looking for convinience. I'm out sailing every single weekend, and during the week when i can. So dealing with the sock is not what i want to do. The whole idea of getting the furler is to make it easier for me.

So I'm still looking at UV dacron vs sunbrella. I must off gone back and forth with my decision at least 5 times. Seems that dacron strip is the best of two evils. Here on the lake wind is not very consistant. There was many times when i went out in the am in 15kt winds and on the way back in the evening i was barely moving with 5 kt winds max. That's why i started looking into performance impact of uv dacron strips vs sunbrella.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2012 : 09:19:42

Tomorrow I will be installing the halyard restrainer. I talked to CD folks and they recommended to use the Harken one. So what the heck.. i went with their recommendation.

Should i use rivet or screws?

I have both on hand... rivets and tapping tools. So I just want to use best option.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2012 : 16:28:28

Screws can come loose and make for a trip up the mast so I would go with the rivets if you got them.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2012 : 18:37:33

Used to drill and tap anything that got attached to the mast or boom. Encountered a rigger at a boatshow who said they use rivets unless the application dictates screws. I've been using rivets ever since - including the Harken restrainer I installed last season.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2012 : 19:12:48

Mast is up and furler installed.. couple lessons learned and questions as i have an issue. :-(

Riveting is great but you need the right tools for SS rivets! I broke 2 stanley riveters in the process. Was able to put in only 2 rivets and the rest i tapped it and put in screws!

Without the restrainer I would not get the 7-8 degree angle for sure! so that was good call to install it before the mast goes up!

But now... Before cutting the last foil I've measured everything twice so I'm 100% confident. Well once everything went up (including new sail) I looked at the top of the mast and what the ?@?#?@#?. last foil is about an 1" below the shank!!!!! How did that happen!!??!?! when i was quickly trying to tune the mast, I realized that it seemed that the top of the mast is leaning forward.... so i loosened the forestay turnbuckle and i tightened backstay - mast was still lining forward a bit. Well i realized that before the turnbuckle at the forestay was nearly bottomed out. This time around it's on opposite end and it's at maximum. (pin to pin length is the same as I double checked). I didn't have too much time to investigate as it was getting dark. I have a feeling once i tune the mast properly, i should be ok. But that is quite odd!!!! my plan is to loosen all the shrouds and start with forestay and backstay.

Anyways.. i will play around with it tomorrow... but is it super important that the top foil rides over the shank???

Daniel.

Edited by - szymek on 05/06/2012 19:14:52

GaryB
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Response Posted - 05/06/2012 : 19:31:13

Maybe I missed it but what brand is your furler?

Edited by - on

szymek
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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2012 : 19:39:55

Sorry Gary. you are right. Maybe I should have started new thread, but i figured since i started asking here about the restrainer I'll continue the topic.

The furler is Harken 00AL.

Edited by - szymek on 05/06/2012 19:40:17

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2012 : 21:16:39

Personally, I like when threads are updated. It makes it easier to find all of the relevant information.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 19:59:58

ok... I had couple of hours today to spend on the boat. I loosened the side shrouds and .... mast is straight now - so i learned few things about tuning the rigging (but now i got quite a bit more to read)! I was able to crank down the forestay turnbuckle quite a bit. So forestay turnbuckle tightened, forestay wire shortened as a result, and foils went up! Now it seems that the last foil sites over the shank!
Harken instructions were pretty good.. but i underestimated how much effort it requires!

Rest of this week will be busy with work, so not sure if I have time to try it out... but for sure this coming up weekend.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4303 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2012 : 21:50:13

I'm not sure the foils are supposed to sit on the shank. I don't think they do on mine and if I remember correctly when I was reading the manual it shows the top foil should be approx. 3/16' below the lower end of the shank.

I'll have to find the manual and re-read it.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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3442 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2012 : 04:20:21

I see the discussion regarding a UV Dacron strip (cover) and a UV Sunbrella cover or using a sock. A sock may be a good alternative but I do not have any experience with one. I do have experience with both the Dacron and Sunbrella covers and there are pro/con to each. On my new sails (now about 3 1/2 years old), I originally had a UV Dacron cover installed on my new sails, though, previous experience with a Sunbrella cover is that the Sunbrella covers last a very long time. The UV Dacron cover did not last that long at all. The bottom strip gets a lot of abuse as it passes over the bow rail. Even though my furling rig Genoa is fairly high and mostly clears the bow rail, the sail does rub on the lifeline/rail and if one sails frequently and is occassionally out in very windy conditions, the Dacron covers do not hold up that well to the abuse. I recall a day last summer when they reported in the newspapers that the guys on the swing scaffolds repairing the Washington Monument from that freakish earthquake that hit our area (nothing like the earthquakes on the west coast but major for the east coast), there was a very unusually high wind (50+mph) that hit the area for about 15 minutes and I was out sailing that day. My 150 Genoa was completely unfurled with what was mostly light winds till that sudden blast occurred and it ripped a 4" X 1/2" strip off the Dacron cover. In the Fall, I brought my sails back to Quantum to have them check them out and also get them cleaned (this was just before I brought my boat in for the hull waterproofing). Besides the small rip on the UV dacron cover, Quantum was looking over the dark contaminants on what was once a pure white UV cover. They informed me there was no way the cleaning process would remove what appeared to be oily contaminants - From the planes taking off at Natl Reagon Airport. Both sails were in otherwise perfect condition with no noticeable stretching but it was estimated if they repaired the small 4" torn strip on the cover, the Dacron cover given the frequent sailing, would only last another year or so. I decided to pay the big bucks and had them remove the cover and replace it with a Sunbrella cover. The Sunbrella holds up much better as anyone with a Sunbrella mainsail cover can attest that these covers last a very long time. However, the Sunbrella covers are thicker and heavier than sail matl and so on a large Genoa, it does hamper light wind sailing. But they do last a long time - I still have the original sails and the Sunbrella cover on the old 150 Genoa is still in relatively good shape...after so many years. Can't say the same for the old sail as it is so blown out...same as the old main sail.

A sock may be the more reasonable alternative to keeping a furled Genoa protected from the weather elements and has benefit of not adding weight to the sail nor directly adding to the cost of the sail. Though, the sock is another thing to contend with versus just rolling up the Genoa.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2012 : 06:30:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 I'm not sure the foils are supposed to sit on the shank. I don't think they do on mine and if I remember correctly when I was reading the manual it shows the top foil should be approx. 3/16' below the lower end of the shank.

I'll have to find the manual and re-read it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hey Gary,

I've followed the instructions and top of the foils is suppose to sit 2 1/2" from the marina eye. That way it gives you an ability to adjust 2" both ways. I hope I've interpreted the manual correctly. :-)

Edited by - on

szymek
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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2012 : 07:11:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 I see the discussion regarding a UV Dacron strip (cover) and a UV Sunbrella cover or using a sock.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Larry,

To be honest with you this has been the toughest decision. Honestly!

I've talked to quite a few people about it and I've done a lot of reading. At the end of the day you need UV protection period. Whether you go with Sunbrella or UV protected Dacron you have to take few factors into consideration, such as sailing conditions (wind), your style of sailing, where you are in the world, size of boat (hmmm maybe).

I have chosen UV protected dacron. Here is why: I sail on lake Ontario where winds go from nothing to 30kt and more. I generally try to stay off the lake if winds are above 25 kt - but I've sailed in 25kt - 30 kt many times as lake Ontario is a big lake and I had to get home from the weekend exploring. I think if you look at the stats an average wind on lake Ontario is 8kt - that's right. UV dacron weights about 4oz per yard where sunbrella is about 10oz (some people told me it's 9 and some up to 12). But regardless sunbrella is more than twice the weight. In winds 10 kt plus you will not see a difference between sunbrella or UV Dacron on sail. But in winds 8kt or less sunbrella will impact sail performance. Sunbrella will last forever - that is its key feature. But most likely stitching will need to be redone every few good years (sorry can't remember the number i was told). In Ontario, where sailing season is from May to October and UV is not as high sailmaker claims that UV Dacron will last at least 5 years - most likely 7. I've heard of guys sailing with UV Dacron for 10 years without any significant issues. Lastly sunbrella does not add any strength to the edge of the sail, where UV Dacron is a sailcloth, so it does add strength to the cloth. In terms of foot of the sail (as Larry stated) i'm not sure I will agree with that. I've sailed with hank on Genoa 150 for last 4 years in all kinds of weather - no damage from passing over safety lines - and I'm one of the guys that's out sailing more than drinking beer in the marina. :-) But in terms protecting foot of the sails from passing over safety lines - i don't think it makes a difference either way you go.

Above is my rational why I went with UV Dacron as protection for my new headsail.

Edited by - on

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