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Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Best way to remove 3rd gen rudder?

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/08/2011 : 09:43:03

At the top of my post-haulout repair list is replacing the bottom gudgeon on my transom. The reasons for this are clear from the [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23812"]Sloppy Rudder[/url] thread.

I have a couple of questions:

First, it appears that I will need to remove the rudder, which I have never done before. I have the Edson pull-pull cable system and 3rd generation rudder. Both of these make it a little less straightforward than the earlier rudders and/or a tiller.

I know how to disconnect the metal rudder arm (did that last winter to replace the rubber boot). But lifting it off the pintles is complicated by the way the rudder extends forward, under the hull of the boat. You can't just lift the rudder off the gudgeons. Is it possible to rotate the rudder far enough to port to lift the rudder, or does the ladder get in the way? (Rotating to starboard is difficult due to interference from the metal rudder arm.)

Or, do I need to unbolt the pintles while they're still in the gudgeons, and just remove the rudder by pulling directly aft?

Also, it appears that the gudgeons may have been bedded with grey rubber gaskets instead of bedding compound. What do you recommend for the replacement? Is there a good gasket material? Or if sealant, what kind do you recommend?

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

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superbob
Navigator

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USA
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Response Posted - 10/08/2011 : 10:32:59

Rick: Having been there and done what you're looking to do, there's one question: Will you attempt to remove the rudder with the boat in or out of the water?

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2011 : 10:38:37

"Post-haulout" = out of the water

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superbob
Navigator

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Response Posted - 10/08/2011 : 11:03:20

Out of the water = easier. I purchased the rudder arm rubber boot from Edson. To remove the rudder it is necessary to detach the rudder steering arm from it. It's not easy. Turn the wheel of your rudder to as far to starboard as possible. Slack in the rudder arm is necessary to remove it from the rudder. Remove the steering arm pin that's attached to the rudder. Also remove the rudder pins on the gudgeons. Removing the steering arm from the rudder is the hard part. It takes another set of hands to jostle the rudder up and to starboard while the other set of hands removes the arm from the rudder. After the rudder arm is removed taking the rudder off the boat is a piece of cake. Lift up and you're done. Frankly, having done this a couple of times, an easier and faster way, at least for me, was to unbolt the hardware on the rudder and removing it thus making it much easier to detach the steering arm. Try the first method and when all else fails, go to Plan B.

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/08/2011 : 11:35:17

Thanks for the info. As I said, I removed the steering arm last year to replace the boot. For this I did not need to remove the rudder - it was easy to slide the boot on the arm with the rudder in place. Funny, I did not remember detaching the arm from the rudder to be particularly difficult, and I did it myself.

But are you sure that removing the 3rd generation rudder is a piece of cake? Do you have this one, or an earlier unbalanced one? It sure looks to me like if you just lift it up, the front bottom of the rudder will hit the hull above it before the pintles disengage from the gudgeons:

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superbob
Navigator

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200 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2011 : 12:09:00

No clue what generation I have other than the boat's a '99 with a rudder that looks like it came with it. Not withstanding of its shape, I thought all 250 rudders were mounted/attached in much the same way. Looks like I thought wrong (again)..... :)

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Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2011 : 12:29:32

I had to rotate my 3rd gen rudder starboard to remove it, I removed the vent cover where the fuel line exits the fuel locker to get it far enough over to clear the hull, easier to remove than the ladder. I used 4200 to rebed. If replacing the gudgeons takes the slop out of the rudder for you then I may have to do that also, the slop I have is almost unacceptable, very noisy in light winds.
I have a tiller but I hope this helps.

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/08/2011 : 15:41:38

Thanks for the info. I won't know until I do the work whether the steering arm, once disengaged from the rudder, will allow me to rotate it far enough to starboard to clear the hull. The boat is scheduled for haulout in early Nov. Until then, I'll do short daysails as time and weather allow.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tradewind
 ...I used 4200 to rebed...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
How has that held up for you? 4200 is not UV resistant, and it has yellowed pretty badly around my masthead light socket. No signs of leaks, though, so it is definitely a big improvement over before.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tradewind
 ...If replacing the gudgeons takes the slop out of the rudder for you then I may have to do that also, the slop I have is almost unacceptable, very noisy in light winds...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
From zooming in on past photos of my transom, I'm 90% sure that the slop has been there all season - and maybe for the two seasons that I have owned the boat - and I just didn't notice it before. But now that I know it's there, it really bothers me. Last time out there was a little vibration while under sail. It could have been in the rigging (12-15 kt winds), or a piece of driftwood lodged on the keel, motor, or rudder (lots of debris since Irene), but I kept feeling back to the rudder, wondering if it was coming from the sloppy gudgeon.

I think I'm going to replace both gudgeons, because if something went wrong with the bottom one (brazed bushing broke off), it's only a matter of time before the same problem happens with the top one.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2011 : 17:07:25

Once you disconnect the steering arm, the rudder will move much farther side to side than itt does now. Once turned, the cut-out should clear the transom and you should be able to lift it out. I have the same shaped rudder only the kickout version and it comes right off when I remove the cotter rings in the pintles. Easy-peasy.

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Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2011 : 05:46:10

I think I was wrong about using 4200, it's the 3M 4000 UV I used. Not supposed to yellow, good for above and below the waterline, found it at WM.

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DonaldM
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2011 : 07:12:20

My rudder and steering setup looks identical to your photo (assuming Edson has not changed the rudder bracket), except I also have a mast support post mounted to the transom between the swim ladder and the rudder, and also have the outboard mounted on the transom. The vertical gap between the top of the forward part of the rudder and the hull at the bottom of the transom is only about 1/8 inch. I removed the rudder last month, easy to do (on the trailer), did not have to remove anything else.

The steering arm comes off merely by removing the large clevis pin in the rudder bracket, then wiggle the arm and rudder to get the arm separated from the bracket. Once disconnected, the steering arm is loose, easily moves to the side.

Next, remove the cotter pin from the rudder pintel, swing the rudder to starboard, hug it to lift (it's heavy!), then lift and wiggle to clear the hull.

PS - Be sure to check the nuts on the rudder pintel bolts. I was shocked to find them loose after some heavy weather sailing last month. On closer examination, it appears that during assembly, the bolts were trimmed too close to the self-locking nuts, so the nylon inserts did not grip the bolts well. I replaced the bolts with longer bolts, and used lock washers with standard nuts.

Don

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2011 : 21:02:34

I pulled the rudder off today. It was quite straightforward, and took only about 5 minutes. Here's my procedure (similar to DonaldM's, except with a few tweaks):

1) Remove cotter pin that secures the clevis pin
2) Remove clevis pin that secures the rudder arm, and associated nylon washers
3) Turn rudder hard to port
4) Use a small screwdriver to "encourage" the pin at the end of the rudder arm to disengage from its seat on the rudder
5) Turn the wheel hard to starboard to move the arm out of the way
6) Manually turn the rudder hard to starboard (port won't work - swim ladder interferes)
7) Once the bottom of the rudder clears the transom, lift the rudder out of its gudgeons

The rudder was not as heavy as I expected.

It was easy enough that I think I'll remove the rudder every year. It will be good the keep the rudder out of freezing temps (in case there's ever a small leak of water into it). I'll use the vacant rudder gudgeons to mount my homemade mast stepper crutch - this seems easier than cutting more holes in the transom for a second set of gudgeons:

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Rather than secure it to the helm backrest as shown above, I bought these gate hinge pieces to use as pintles on the 2x4 for supporting the mast:

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Edited by - TakeFive on 11/13/2011 07:55:04

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