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Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Main outhaul cleat

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/28/2011 : 06:51:37

I may be sweating over minutea here, but what is everyone using to cleat teh main outhaul, and how is it rigged?

On Iris we currently have a dinghy clam cleat (like this):

Although that cleat has served well for years, this season it decided to go on strike, and the outhaul slipped whenever we were sailing to windward in more than about 10 knots. Bad news when you need to haul in the bottom of the sail. Much swearing occured due to not getting the boost desired on a pointing leg.

I bought a cam cleat to replace it (like this):

Being that I would prefer not to have to drill new holes in the boom, has anyone got a brilliant idea for the outhaul cleat that I haven't considered yet?

Does anyone else adjust outhaul for windward/reaching/running legs, or am I super anal and should just set and forget? If I set & forget I can tie-off the outhaul and pretend it doesn't exist. I tend to over-tighten it anyways.

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - Prospector on 09/28/2011 06:54:34

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2011 : 07:12:04

Buy the racing version of the clam cleat, it will be metal instead of plastic and will hold forever.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2011 : 07:29:45

Frank, Would replacing the outhaul line with "one size up" be another solution? I was wondering if the line has polished or something, but I figured the mechanical holding power of the cam cleat would eliminate any future problems like that. Maybe I'll stop by the local chandlery at lunch and see what they have in metal clam cleats.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2011 : 07:43:33

My 4:1 outhaul was the first line I led back to the cockpit and it is cleated with a rope clutch and is adjusted, when required, with the help of a cabin top winch. When I'm tensioning my outhaul, conditions are usually such that I'd prefer not to stand while doing so. For example, this past Sunday I was out in winds that built to around 15-20 with 3-4ft waves. I was close hauled with the boat heeling a fair amount, and I was dodging spray as I came pounding down off the wave tops. After the wind pipe up a smidge more, I decided it was time to fully tension the outhaul which I did so using the winch, because even at 4:1, with that amount of wind, there was no way I was going to pull on that line by hand to flatten the main.

When I was learning to sail on my first boat, the outhaul was rigged by the PO to be cleated using a clam cam at the end of the boom. Needless to say, I used it pretty much like you stated, I set it when I raised the main, then forgot about it as it was a pain to adjust on the fly. With it now available to me conveniently, and safely, located on the cabintop, I actively use it all the time.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2011 : 07:52:39

Good ideas Don, but all 6 spots on my cabin-top leads are spoken for. I could add 2 more (Cunningham and outhaul) but it would get ungainly. The current method for tightening is that the helmsman grabs the clew of teh main and pulls back on it while railmeat hauls on the 4:1 and tightens the outhaul, then recleats.

We also head out in heavy weather and when you are heeling hard, this is not a fun job. Of course, it is always the marginal weather (approaching time to reef) when it is hardest to do, so that could spark its own discussion. Reef early vs tighten outhaul and dump in the gusts. I prefer to tighten everythign up and play the mainsheet, but when the outhaul fails and you end up with a mainsail that looks like its about to give birth while pointing lower than the rest of the fleet, it makes a grown man want to cry.

Maybe I could get rid of the second reefing line and use it for outhaul instead. Winching that line is an appealing idea.

Edited 'cause I don't know the corners of a sail yet.

Edited by - Prospector on 09/28/2011 07:54:09

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2011 : 07:59:49

I'm using a jam cleat that fits into the track on the end of the boom.

http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=1106&ParentCat=150

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2011 : 09:35:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Good ideas Don, but all 6 spots on my cabin-top leads are spoken for. I could add 2 more (Cunningham and outhaul) but it would get ungainly.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Interestingly, on my boat the cunningham and outhaul are the only two lines I've led to the cabin top, again, since their use would be during times of higher winds and rougher conditions.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2011 : 09:54:15

Its fun to see how different boats are set up.

My cabin-top lines are:
1. Main Halyard
2. Jib Halyard
3. Reef Point 1
4. Reef Point 2
5. Boom Vang
6. Whisker pole topping lift/spin halyard/spare halyard.

I suppose I could lose thspin halyard since it is mostly used to adjust the height of the whisker pole on a downwind run, but in light air, I don't like moving any more than I have to, and that is when that control is most critical. We don't fly spinnaker, but the line is attached to the spin block on the masthead. I wonder if my rope clutches could handle a line as light as what we have for our outhaul. You've got me thinking.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2011 : 13:53:12

The plastic cleats wear and they are what gets "polished", the "racing series" of cleats will hold the old line and last forever.

Edited by - on

rrick
Captain

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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2011 : 18:34:41

Ronstan makes a v-cleat from composites. The edge turns to sandpaper as it ages. I think they kept the same hole pattern as ClamCleat.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2011 : 06:46:45

Right now I am thinking I will lead it through the new cleat I bought mounted on the boom, but closer to the mast. Then I can provide the outhaul with a tail long enough to get a couple wraps on the winch mounted on the mast (which currently sits unused). This would give me the extra power that comes with a winch, without having to run it back to the cockpit. It should make for the possibility of my railmeat tuning the control while I drive without me being distracted because I have to yank on the sail while (s)he tails.

Edited by - Prospector on 09/29/2011 06:51:12

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2011 : 08:27:40

I would never put a winch to that line, you will likely rip the cringle out! If you cannot adjust your outhaul by hand then I recommend you try a little Maclube on the foot rope. If you are loose footed then it takes no effort to adjust an outhaul. Cam cleats are designed so that they are EASY TO GET A LINE OUT OF THE CLEAT. That is the wrong design parameter for an out haul, especially a cleat on a boom. The clam or small horn is the correct cleat for your application.
Of course you should do what you like.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2011 : 08:38:21

I agree with Frank that the clam cleat will probably work if it is replaced with the metal version. The plastic ones only last 2-3 years, if you use them very often. The plastic is soft, and the teeth wear away and lose their grip on the line. My new sail came with a plastic clam cleat for the leech line, and I had it replaced with a metal one, because the plastic one would have been a recurring nuisance.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2011 : 09:04:25

Hmmm. Something is wrong then. My main is loose-footed, and even with the 4:1 I defy you to adjust the outhaul without luffing. Maybe I should get that McLube.

I was wanting the cam cleat specifically because I could pop the line out easily and ease the outhaul. I see little difference in funtion between it and the clam cleat, with the exception that the clam cleat holds based on tension on the line.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2011 : 09:34:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Hmmm. Something is wrong then. My main is loose-footed, and even with the 4:1 I defy you to adjust the outhaul without luffing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank's just superhuman as he once stated he puts one wrap on his primary winches and doesn't use a winch handle, but my loose footed main is nearly impossible to tension on the fly in a blow close hauled. Sure, I can do it without assistance of the winch, if I luff, come off the wind, etc, but I prefer to make adjustments on the run. Oh, and Frank, I don't think you're "likely" to rip the cringle out as I've been doing this for...I can't even remember, without issue so I don't think its "likely". Also, I'm not grunting on my small cabintop winch, just allowing it to do the work. Need to work smarter, not harder.

Edited by - dlucier on 09/29/2011 10:39:07

pastmember
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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2011 : 10:38:53

I always worry about what someone else will do with the rig as I set it up. I am sure non eof us would rip our cringles out but a well intentioned "guest" sure could. Of course Don's points are all well taken as they always are. As for being superhuman, I am strong for a nerd. (Kansas beef) I only had 3:1 on my '89 and pulled too hard and put permanent wrinkles in the foot.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2011 : 13:09:51

Well, you guys convinced me enough that at lunch I swapped the cam cleat for a clam cleat - it was even half the money!! I got a $10 refund! Woo Hoo.

But I still think I'll mount it forward on the boom and use the winch for the heavy work.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2011 : 13:11:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 I always worry about what someone else will do with the rig as I set it up. I am sure non eof us would rip our cringles out but a well intentioned "guest" sure could. Of course Don's points are all well taken as they always are. As for being superhuman, I am strong for a nerd. (Kansas beef) I only had 3:1 on my '89 and pulled too hard and put permanent wrinkles in the foot.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I noticed your foot of the main is not in a slot. Is this normal.
Mine runs in a slot and is hard to tighten the foot using an outhaul, especially when it is under a load.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2011 : 13:16:28

I guess that is "Loose footed". Is there any advantage to a loose footed main?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2011 : 13:37:33

Hey NC - A loose foot gives more control of sail shape. I have 2 mains, and with the bolt-rope main I can build a shelf, but it doesn't flow as nicely as the belly I can shape in the loose-footed sail. I also have a leech line (foot line??) along eht bottom of teh sail, so I can ease the outhaul, but tension the leech line to shape a shelf for light wind, downwind conditions.

The loose footed sail is also easier to put on/take off and adjust.

Article on one vs the other here: (Very opinionated)http://www.fxsails.com/article_loosefoot.php

Edited by - Prospector on 09/29/2011 13:38:14

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2011 : 04:36:56

No Topping lift Frank? I'm about to add one with my mast rewire project and I'm looking at a change with the outhaul thanks to prospector. Not up to racing yet, still working on getting all the deck hardware sealed.

We call her LeeKee for good reason!

Edited by - redeye on 09/30/2011 04:45:44

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2011 : 10:06:55

I was trying a boomkicker, hated it and put a topping lift back on.
I love loose footed mains. I am a sail shape nut and the loose foot seems to help.

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2011 : 13:52:05

this is a great thread about sail shape. The other topic then (don't see any on Cat 25's tho) is furling main. I would guess furled main has compromises then regardless of boom or mast furled. Boom furled allows for full battens, and have seen vertical battens? on a mast furled, though to what degree they are helpful I do not know.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 09/30/2011 : 14:02:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ape-X
 . . . regardless of boom or mast furled . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There is some debate about the amount of weight in-mast furling adds up top - as opposed to in-boom furling . . .

Edited by - on

JohnP
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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2011 : 16:21:52

Chris,
You've probably seen this before, but here is my simple but effective outhaul rig that I made from an extra mainsheet setup with the fiddle block and cam cleat giving enough mechanical advantage. I always tension it while the main is hauled in, and that is easy by standing across both cockpit benches. My main is loose-footed.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2011 : 18:38:08

SO I went to the marina this morning and removed the old plastic cleat, replacing it with the new aluminium one, but I didn't have tools, so I just put it on in the same spot. I'll move the cleat when I get around to it... Hopefully before spring.This season is now officially done.

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