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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Sloppy Rudder?

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moserd
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/08/2011 : 10:14:10

I have a 2005 WK with wheel steering. From the beginning the rudder has had more 'play / slop' than I expected (or desired) and it is starting to concern me. Under way with either motor OR sail there is no noticeable slop or slack; i.e. acceptable performance. If you lock the wheel preventing the rudder arm from moving and pull back and forth on the rudder it seems that the 'slack' is in the pintel / gudgeon joint and not in the steering. The bolts on the rudder hardware are all tight and there is not any noticeable movement between any of the hardware and the rudder. However the movement is noticeable between the pintel / gudgeon..

This issue is most obvious when I am anchored; I usually lock the wheel and connect a bungee cord to the rudder and the railing in order to keep the movement to a minimum.

If you get in the water and grab the lower part of the rudder and pull /yank you can feel the movement and 'see' the pintle movement.

Any idea on what I can do to solve this? Is it possible that the boat is supported to have a nylon bushing installed? (nothing there!)

The boat has NOT been aggressively sailed nor grounded..

Anyone else experiencing this issue?

Thanks,

Don

Don Moser

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2011 : 04:43:06

Hi Don, check that the gudgeon bearing remains welded to its base. There were some early failures of the bearing breaking loose but I thought that problem was solved by welding the bearing to the bracket rather than brazing it. At any rate, if the bearing has broken free from the mount it allows the pintle to move within the gudgeon base allowing a good bit of movement.

If that is the problem, the gudgeon will need replaced.

Otherwise, the play is actually in the steering system. One of the issues was that the brackets which receive and hold the cables bend inward allowing center play. One fix for that is affixing a wood spacer between the brackets to prevent them from bending toward each other.

The play can become enough so that the chain jumps gear cogs when under heavy loads. Other than a spacer block, an open wire steering conversion can also solve the play issue as well as provide a much better wheel to rudder ratio and an easier helm.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2011 : 09:53:49

You seem to be describing the same issue I had with my 1978-vintage pintles and gudgeons. I replaced the worn gudgeons with new items that include delrin plastic grommets to seat the pintles.

The rattle of the rudder at anchor was really annoying. Every wave or boat wake would make a loud click-click in the quarterberth.

I would be surprised if a 6-year old rudder attachment could wear out like my 33-year old hardware, though.

Edited by - on

moserd
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2011 : 10:02:03

I just realized that this rudder is my third replacement (cracks) and I am using the pintles that were delivered with this used / repaired rudder. I wonder if Catalina changed the size of the pintles OR if these are worn out... I will try to measure the other pintles and compare.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Don

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2011 : 10:10:28

Click [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20220&SearchTerms=gudgeon"]here[/url] for the same discussion 2 years ago!

It seems that how you set the wheel at anchor might solve your problem on the C250.

Edited by - JohnP on 08/17/2011 10:14:27

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2011 : 13:35:03

I was inspecting a few things today and noticed that the bottom gudgeon's hole is significantly larger than the pintle that goes into it. It does appear that the rudder has some play because of this, but I have never noticed any noises from this while under sail or in the slip.

It looks like there is a washer around the pintle on top of that gudgeon. It makes me wonder if it used to be a bushing that sat in the gudgeon and maybe the bottom part was severed and fell off, leaving the "washer" in place.

I don't think that the gudgeon hole could have worn to be as large as it is. The whole thing is hard to see because it's tucked underneath the rubber Edson boot, so I don't have any pics. But it seems to me that anyone with tiller steering would have a much better view of the bottom gudgeon/pintle assembly. Could any of you confirm how much play there is, and whether there is a bushing that reduces the amount of play on the bottom pintle?

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2011 : 08:19:39

My 1998 tiller also seems to have too much play at the pintles and gudgeons, thought maybe a bushing was missing, however Catalina Direct says there is no bushing for these years. I can't say exactly how much play there is but when I'm sailing I see the rudder moving back and forth more than I think it should. Next time I get to the marina I'll see if I can get a close measurement for how much play. The play in not in the tiller attachment, I've checked that.

Day 3 of winds in the 30's with higher gusts, on the beam. Fortunately my slip is wide, plenty of room for extra lines.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2011 : 12:30:12

The best way to demonstrate what I saw is to show a video, so I got down to the boat today to capture a short clip. The wobble that you see and hear is caused by me manipulating the top of the rudder - what normally occurs is not at all noticeable unless you're specifically looking for it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it_Xmi72-oo

I am hoping that someone will chime in with an answer as to whether this is normal tolerance, or a sign that something is wrong. I'd expect any trailer sailors to know right away, since you reinstall and remove the rudder every time you launch the boat.

Edited by - on

moserd
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2011 : 05:00:51

WOW, that is really 'loose'. My rudder is not that bad.... however it is 'sloppy' in the same axis.

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 11:00:43

mine rattles too , but not as much ..

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 12:17:30

As I mentioned in my prior message, that wobble and accompanying rattle do not seem to occur in normal use. When the boat is underway, the rudder pulls the lower pintle firmly against the aft edge of the hole in the gudgeon. When I'm in the slip I do not notice any rattle either, perhaps because I have strong (~2 kt) tidal currents, so the rudder is either pushed forward or aft. I've never anchored - if I did, maybe I would notice some rattle as the boat pitches back and forth.

The wobble and rattle that you see and hear in the video are created by me pushing the top of the rudder around. The upper pintle has very narrow tolerance - it's just the bottom one with more slop.

So to those of you who have less slop, is it because your gudgeon has a smaller hole, or do you have some sort of bushing or other liner between the pintle and gudgeon?

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 17:16:45

theres is no bushing or liner ..but there is a thicker piece welded on .

mine is noisey enough too that i would like to replace it

Catalina Direct maybe ??

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2011 : 06:42:35

Looking at the video, it appears you may have a 1/2" gudgeon and a 3/8" pintle. Might help to install a [url="http://www.globalindustrial.com/g/motors/bearings/thrust-flange-collar-bearings/Nylon-Flanged-Bushing?infoParam.campaignId=T9A&gclid=CMKbtoPjjasCFeF05QodnEhBwQ"]flange bushing[/url], possibly a 3/8" ID with a 1/2" OD.

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2011 : 12:36:45

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2011 : 13:25:40

Didn't the original gudgeons have three bolts, not four? It could be the gudgeon was replaced and is a mismatch for the pintle as Don mentions. The bushing would be an easy and cheap fix. Longer term you might want to replace the gudgeons. The bushing is actually made to insert into a cylindrical collar on the improved gudgeon (see Don's picture). It might be subject to cutting itself into two if just inserted into a gudgeon without the cylinder but they are hard nylon and should last a while anyway.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2011 : 13:35:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Looking at the video, it appears you may have a 1/2" gudgeon and a 3/8" pintle. Might help to install a [url="http://www.globalindustrial.com/g/motors/bearings/thrust-flange-collar-bearings/Nylon-Flanged-Bushing?infoParam.campaignId=T9A&gclid=CMKbtoPjjasCFeF05QodnEhBwQ"]flange bushing[/url], possibly a 3/8" ID with a 1/2" OD.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for the link. That's exactly what I have been thinking of adding, but had no idea where to find it. It will go on the list of off-season projects on the hard, since my steering mechanism makes removing the rudder very difficult on water.

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2011 : 13:40:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 Didn't the original gudgeons have three bolts, not four? It could be the gudgeon was replaced and is a mismatch for the pintle as Don mentions. The bushing would be an easy and cheap fix. Longer term you might want to replace the gudgeons. The bushing is actually made to insert into a cylindrical collar on the improved gudgeon (see Don's picture). It might be subject to cutting itself into two if just inserted into a gudgeon without the cylinder but they are hard nylon and should last a while anyway.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Due to a series of upgrades and mishaps involving prior owners, this boat has had at least three rudders. So it's possible the pintles were replaced without the a corresponding replacement of the gudgeon. It's also possible that with all the replacements, a bushing was not replaced. Or possible that the bushing sheared off, leaving a remaining washer on top (which is present now). I'll have a closer look at the gudgeon next time I get to the boat - but right now the Delaware River is so flooded I can't get within two blocks of the marina.

Edited by - TakeFive on 09/08/2011 13:42:11

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2011 : 19:48:02

The rudder on my C25 rattles around too but nowhere near as much as yours. If you don't do something it will eventually wear the pintle down until it snaps off at the most inopportune time.

Edited by - on

DonaldM
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2011 : 12:47:19

I measured the pintels and gudgeons today using a caliper mic with the rudder removed. The pintles are 0.495" - 0.498" OD, while the gudgeons are 0.515" - 0.517" ID. Thus, there's only about 0.020" play, and the rudder has almost no unwanted movement.

Also, there is no bushing of any type. In fact, there is not even room to put a flat washer between the pintle and gudgeon because of the limited clearance between the upper leading edge of the rudder and the hull (the leading edge of the rudder extends slightly forward of the transom).

Hope this helps.

Don

PS - Our boat is "berthed" on a trailer at home, tow to a marina to launch whenever we sail. Never remove the rudder for trailering. Although the rudder's fully six feet long, there's plenty of clearance to the ground because of the wing keel.

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