Association Forum - Balanced Rudders anyone???

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Balanced Rudders anyone???

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 4

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2011 : 16:02:43

Jonathon, probably the most serious threat you have is Texas sunlight, particularly on any bottom paint on the rudder when it's out of the water. The heat can expand the core--the solid HDPE rudders come with warnings that it can warp the blade.

If moisture does get in (such as through the bolt hole), one freeze could be all it takes. How cold doesn't matter much--ice expands dramatically at the freezing point and then contracts as it gets colder.

Edited by - on

Frank Law
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 07:58:31

Hey All--- I've mentioned this before , that I have my tiller / rudder bolted together .. I remove the combo every time I use the boat . I takes 4 minutes to remove (just pull the pin and lift up and slide the whole thing into the boat) I then carry the mass by holding the upper pintle and take it into the cabin . The biggest problem is installing it if the wind is up as the rudder wants to float . I do not find this to be a hassle or even hard to do .. I'm 73 so you can do it .. No bottom paint , no splits ..

Frank Law
" About Time"
1983 swk , sr

Edited by - on

lightnsail@aol.com
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
20 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2011 : 17:34:31

Any word on price and availability from this new manufacturer?

Edited by - on

skybird
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2011 : 23:05:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 Got the rudder today. It looks good!

I'll remind him to try and come in here, or at least send me the info to post.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Jonathan, can you call me at three25sixsix5zero4seven3 if you are going to be at the lake between 7/24 and 7/30? We will be staying just across the road and i would like to see your rudder if convenient

Edited by - skybird on 07/22/2011 23:09:26

magsodrn
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2011 : 05:16:05

I also would like to know the price of the rudder from this new manufacturer. I have an 85 that needs to be replaced.

Thanks
M~

Edited by - on

jrchase11
1st Mate

Members Avatar

35 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2011 : 06:24:14

Any details on price and availability yet? I need a rudder as well. Also any thoughts on advantages / disadvantages between hdpe rudder vs this one?

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2011 : 19:59:36

Having an Idasail(?) HDPE (resin) balanced rudder purchased through CD, I can vouch that they are more prone to warpage. I remove mine off season every year and store it in the garage and yet one year it developed a slight curve, reminding me how sensitive it is. Regardless of if it is a traditional glass covered wood/foam or resin, storing the rudder off season is easy and will expand it's useful life by years -- and makes maintenance of the tiller a lot easier.

When you get a quote it will be interesting to hear how much this new option costs!

Edited by - on

jrchase11
1st Mate

Members Avatar

35 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2011 : 09:37:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector 
When I asked what kind of price we would be looking at for rudders from his shop, Don's answer was "Whatever is out there now, I'll beat it." He is hoping to be sub $600 dollars, hopefully around $500<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bigelowp
 When you get a quote it will be interesting to hear how much this new option costs!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I got a price from Don at Foss and it is $650 + shipping so $10 cheaper than CD.

Edited by - on

BenD
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
36 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2011 : 12:53:41

That's interesting. Foss quoted me $575 plus shipping which they estimated at $75. Did the price go up?

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2011 : 19:34:29

Hey guys, sorry I've been away for so long. Just had my first child. :) Haven't seen the boat since I got the rudder. I haven't coated it yet, so its been sitting in the cabin. I plan to coat it soon. The problem with texas is your off-season is our best sailing weather. The lakes do not freeze, but it does reach freezing temps.
I'm fairly certain these can easily be made now, so just give them a call for a better and cheaper option.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3440 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2011 : 21:20:11

I EMailed Catalina Yachts if they support replacement rudders for our boats and the Parts Dept sent me an EMail with the cost but I have that at work. It was around $750 for a balanced rudder constructed of foam and fiberglass. Foss Foam is less expensive and seems to be of similar matls.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2011 : 09:04:47

Yup! If you call Foss, post back the current pricing for us. He said his goal was to always beat the competitors for quality and price.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 11/29/2011 09:09:42

Ape-X
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2011 : 10:15:04

...O/T, but will start here: Does anyone have the dry weight of a standard rudder with the tiller removed? That would be a good method for determining the water saturation.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3440 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 05:09:58

I don't know if determining overall water saturation is going to be a good indicator of continued satisfactory performance of the rudder. This is because if there was a specific spot/area that was water saturated/weak and it was also an area that was subjected to high stress while sailing, then that would be the most likely spot where further deterioration or catastrophic separation would occur even if overall the rudder had low water saturation. The surveyers use a moisture meter of sorts. I am not fully familiar with it's capabilites but it would seem to me that know specific areas of heavy saturation would be a better indicator. How much does a moisture meter cost and would it be sufficient to determine at what point one has to consider repalcing a rudder...I am not sure. You get into a grey area as to correlating specific saturated areas and susceptibility to a catastrophic failure. If all we had to be concerne dwith was very gradual deterioration of the rudder and it was visible, then one could chage out the rudder at the appropriate time. However, I suspect that rudder breakage occurs all of a sudden under high stress...well maybe not all the time but that would seem to the more likely scenario...so how to correlate deteroration/water stauration with risk of failure ?

When I bought my boat 6 years ago, the PO indicated he had a survey performed 4 years earlier when he bought the boat. At that time, the surveyer indicated to the PO that the rudder had indications of moisture but the PO did not elaborate anything addl to me. The 6 years I have had the boat, the boat has been in freshwater all year-round and the rudder has always been in the water. My boat right now is drydocked awaiting a blister repair/waterproofing. I am considering replacing the rudder since it also has a few blisters on it and I feel it may warrant being on the dsafe side and just replace it, though, visibly, it looks fairly decent. Visible indications, though, are not alone a good indicator especially since so many years earlier there were indications of moisture.

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 09:20:24

Larry,
Have you tried a moisture meter in the crack?

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3440 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 10:47:43

I have not tried a moisture meter and...I do not have a crack. The rudder visually looks pretty good except for a few blisters. The top works of the trailing edge of the rudder has about a 1/16" - 1/8" seam but appears to be fully epoxied in that seam so I would not consider it an issue. But the fact that a previous survey 10 years ago indicated moisture issues with the rudder and I am now going for a waterproofing job on the hull, my thought is that rather than attend to blister repair/waterproofing the rudder, perhaps after 22 yrs buy a new rudder. The phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" probably does not apply to a rudder that when it does fail, it is oftentimes when you most need it. I could pass on replacing it and save the $600 - $750 but given I am attending to waterproofing at this time, my thought is replacing the rudder should eradicate all bottom issues for a long, long time.

I think I will stay away from the HDPE rudders and go with a fiberglass foam rudder seeing how the present one has lasted fine for 22 years. But I am debating over saving some dough and going with the Foss Foam rudder or going directly with the mfr of our sailboats, Catalina Yachts. I am not sure of the track record regarding either nor the differences in how they make up what seems to be similar constructed rudders. My philosphy regarding purchases in general is that if I had succes with a mfr, I will go back to them again and that si why maybe I would go with Catalina Yachts. But it is probably highly unlikely that they make up the same rudder as they did 22 years ago and so....well that is where I am. The Foss Foam discussions and what appears to be a history they have had making rudders is a plus but I am not aware of anyone that has had one of their rudders long term to base anything on reliability. I do have a Catalina Yacht rudder and so....if I consider the long track record they have had with no real adverse postings ...We all love our boats, that si why I am considering going with their rudder even though it is more expensive. I certainly want to invest in what will cause me know issues over the long term. Anyone that can add plus/minus regarding the reliability of either mfr, please share.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/30/2011 10:52:06

NautiC25
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 11:48:32

Seeing as how Foss made the original rudder for Catalina........why would you assume that the one they're currently producing (again) isn't any better? The fact that they are also cheaper makes it a no brainer.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 11/30/2011 11:55:29

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 13:02:19

NautiC25,
I assume you have read this already, good info before you paint the rudder:
http://newrudders.com/?page_id=4

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 13:24:20

Yes I have. Although I plan to color match it blue, the coat will only go to water level, and the rudder will stay in the water. Should I trailer it, the rudder will go in the cabin out of the sun.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 14:33:44

Wow, got an email reply 5 minutes after sending my question to Foss:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It is a good idea to barrier coat. The more protection the better. I have attached rudder prep instructions FYI. For more information on our products please visit our web site. Thanks for your inquiry. Please let me know if you have any additional questions.

Bob "Al" Walker
www.newrudders.com
PH 352-529-1104
Fax 352-529-1106
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The attached document:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Foss Foam Products of Florida, Inc.
7060 NE HWY 41
Williston, FL 32696
Ph 352-529-1104
Fax 352-529-1106
bobwalker10@aol.com
www.newrudders.com

Instructions for bottom painting and or barrier coat prep on a Foss Foam Rudder while protecting your rudders One Year Limited Warranty

Lightly sand/etch the surface of your Foss Foam built rudder with 100/120 grit sandpaper. Sand/etch the edges by hand. DO NOT USE ANY DEWAXING LIQUID OR SANDING AID! The rudders gelcoat finish is soft, unlike that of a boat hull. The use of liquid sanding aids or dewaxing liquids may lead to prerelase and/or blistering of the gelcoat surface.

Foss Foam rudders are manufactured from a two piece clam shell style mold. Gelcoat and fiberglass materials are sprayed and then hand laminated into the mold. After curing/hardening and still in the mold the rudder blade is foamed filled and left to cure overnight. Once cured, it is then demolded and the circumference of the seam trimmed where the two halves come together. Once trimmed the seam is then fiberglassed using standard marine grade matting and cloth materials. After curing the seam is then faired and the entire rudder is covered with an additional coat of gelcoat. As a result, the final coat of gelcoat will be softer than the underlying molded gelcoat finish.

Sanding/etching the rudder entails just breaking the shiny surface of the gelcoats outer coat. With proper lighting the process of preping the surface should only turn the surface area dull or to a flat overall finish. The purpose of this sanding/etching is to break/remove any shiny surface and traces of the mold release wax used during the build process.

Foss Foam incorporates over thirty years of rudder building experience into each rudder that leaves our factory. By following a few simple guidelines we feel that you will be well on your way to a fun filled season on the water.

Thank you for purchasing a Foss Foam rudder and if you have any questions please donft hesitate to call us at the above number or you may refer to our web site, www.newrudders.com for pictures of our production process.
@
Sincerely,
Bob gAlh Walker
President
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wow, lot of good info in there. So glad I went ahead and emailed them. These guys have awesome customer service!

Edited by - NautiC25 on 11/30/2011 14:39:34

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3440 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 15:15:30

This has been a long posting thread and I recall reading past postings a long time ao but not recently. I forgot that oss Foam made the original rudder !!! Looks like I am going to go the Foss Foam route. Maybe by next week I will stop procrastinating and take some action on this.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 19:05:12

Larry,

If I'm not mistaken most of your sailing is in a river. Unless you sail in an open bay or offshore I wouldn't worry about your rudder based on what you've described. If the above is true, even if the rudder broke you wouldn't be too far from shore or a place to pull in and stop.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3440 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 19:38:53

Gary - You are probably right. I'm thinking about it. I'll sit on it to at least next week.

Edited by - on

Page: of 4

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.