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symmetrical spinnaker

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ajacobs
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/17/2010 : 17:11:13

I'm looking for any advice about buying and rigging up a symmetrical spinnaker on a Catalina 25. I have searched the forum history but I have mostly found arguments about asymm vs. symm, and then how to rig an asymm. I already know I want a symmetrical and would love to hear from anyone flying one with any advice at all.

Amy

AJacobs
Equinox
1983 C-25
Sodus Point, NY

Edited by - on

ajacobs
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2010 : 18:09:41

JimB417 - I do see all of your excellent symm advice from 2009. Thank you!

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2010 : 22:00:38

Love flying mine, ask any questions! The spin really powers the boat up. It is a lot of fun. It is pretty easy to do with a little practice. It is pretty hard to get the boat really overpowered.

Lots of photos on my web page

http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/indyIII.html

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2010 : 09:12:43

Hi Amy,
First of all, I'm sure that you'll like an assym. It is a great light wind, reaching sail that can be sailed to nearly a close reach in lighter wind conditions. I've had mine nearly since Snickerdoodle was new in 1985. With a tiller pilot, I can easily single-hand and use the cruising chute (dousing sock) too.
The Set Up - - You will want to rig a spinnaker halyard and not use the jib halyard (1/4" sta-set line or similar) due to excessive chafe on the forestay if you use the jib halyard - no chafe on the forestay with a spinnaker halyard. The spinnaker halyard is rove through a block on the most forward pin in the mast head cap. BTW: the forestay should be secured by the second most forward pin (see C25 parts manual in another section of this website for factory drawings). Where you lead the halyard is up to you (on the mast or aft on the cabin top if other halyards are lead aft). Secure a snap shackle to the halyard end that attaches to the spinnaker's head cringle.
To give the tack corner adjustment ability, secure a block to the stem fitting with a shackle and a jam or cam cleat near the cockpit (my cam cleat is mounted on the outside of the portside coaming just aft of the primary winch). Rig your adjustment line (1/4" sta-set) from the tack of the sail (with a snap shackle) through the block on the stem fitting and back to the cockpit winch. I've tied a loop about six inches from the snap shackle and have a carabiner there so that I can snap the adjuctment line to my forestay to better control the tack. Don't do the carabiner idea if you have roller furling or a jib luff foil setup.
I bought two cars that slide on my 1" "T" track and have them located just aft of the forward leg of the stern pulpit. To these cars I secure snatch blocks for the sheets. The sheets that I use are made up of a continuous 1/4" sta-set line that is 100 feet long. I tied a loop at the middle of this line and have a single snap shackle there. The sheet needs to be rigged forward of the forestay AND forward of the tack line; then back through the snatch blocks and then to the winches on each side.
Okay?? So, the "lash up" is a spinnaker halyard at the head; a tack adjustment line for the tack; and the sheets from the clew corner of the sail. Got it??
Sailing the assym is easier with a dousing sock (chute scoop, flasher stasher, etc). With the sock you can hoist the sail all the way up and check to make sure that everything is ready before you raise the sock up with the sock's uphaul/downhaul line. As you raise the sock, the sail fills with breeze. Secure the uphaul/downhaul line to a cleat on the mast and enjoy your sail.
Trim the assym so that the foot is approximately horizontal with your tack adjustment line. Also, let the tack fly five or six feet above the deck for broad reaching and adjust the tack lower (to about the top of the bow pulpit) for close reaching. Sheet out the loaded sheet so that the luff edge of the sail is just curling a little bit. If you sheet out any farther, the luff would collapse.
It is very difficult to tack an assym. This is such a huge sail that it doesn't easily pull through the fore triangle - and if you do tack, the sail will chafe on the forestay near its head. Instead, I always jibe the assym by turning the boat downwind and sailing the bow under and below the assym's tack corner. The easy way to do this maneuver is to release the loaded sheet just before starting the jibe. Bee patient... The assym will billow out in front of your boat like a big flag. As the bow turns under the tack corner, sheet in on the new loaded side and the sail will sort of turn inside out and begin to fill.
Wind conditions - - the assym is probably made of 3/4 oz spinnaker cloth (rip-stop nylon). This is very lightweight cloth that will fill in very little breeze. In fact, in really light breezes of 1 to 2 knots the sail would fill but for the 1/4" sheets. For these really light breezes I have 5mm light weight sheets. The top wind condition for comfortable sailing is probably mid-teens. The sail is strong enough for more, but you may find sailing with a jib at slightly reduced boat speed quite a bit less exciting.
Finally, you might want to sail with only the assym hoisted for the first few times you use it. The mainsail won't blanket the assym; AND you will be able to see what the sail does without the mainsail "getting in the way". Try to have the breeze between 4 and 8 knots for the first few times for better control and faster learning.
Have fun with the new sail.
Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - Bill Holcomb on 07/18/2010 09:17:09

ajacobs
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2010 : 15:28:57

I'm very excited to hear that it's worth getting a spinnaker for our C25. I'm racing on a C&C29 with a symmetrical this summer (spin trimmer) so I've become pretty set on a symmetrical for better or worse I know. Would be nice to have one for racing and one for cruising. Maybe some day.

Some questions we have right now are:
pole length?
pole diameter?
pole material?
pole supplier? (Is this something to get from Catalina Direct or try our local shop?)

Do you favor a local sailmaker or have you ever tried sailwarehouse.com?
p://thesailwarehouse.com/cgi-bin/web_store.cgi?page=storeframe.html&cart_id=
(sorry - that looks like an asymm. how about nationalsail.com?
http://nationalsail.com/mcart/index.cgi?code=3&cat=15 edited 7/19/10)

I was thinking 0.75 tri-radial nylon.

Thanks!

Edited by - ajacobs on 07/19/2010 06:26:25

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2010 : 10:17:55

I wrote something up some time ago, I'm sure it is still on the server however the link no longer works.

http://catalina-capri-25s.com/tech/tech25/flywasp.asp

PAUL can you assist?

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2010 : 10:21:19

Somehow, I clicked something and it came up...not sure what I did. Here is the cut paste of the Tech Tip. Apparently the copy editor was on vacation when this was written.

Adding a Tri-Radial Spinnaker to your C-25

by Duane Wolff
August 12, 2003
Catalina 25 #401 "The Flying Wasp"
duanewolff@yahoo.com

They look great going downwind, but adding the rigging and then using a tri-radial spinnaker isn’t all glamour. Sure, its fun cruising faster than hull speed down the back of a wave, but its going to take a lot more concentration to fly it than your normal gennaker or drifter, and it most-likely isn’t something you’ll want to do if you spend your time single-handing. That being said, there are still a number of people who want to “Go Fly A Kite” This article will hopefully show you the basics so you can do it on your Catalina 25.

In an attempt to keep this simple, I’ll give you the basic set up used on most boats today, and then add possible cost saving alternatives, or other rigging alternatives at the end. When broken down, there are essentially 3 control lines for the sail, two more for the pole and an additional 2 more for the control lines themselves; so to make it easier, I am going to break down the equipment needed into 4 categories. They are: the halyard, the sheets, the guys, and the pole.

HALYARD

Lets start with the halyard. You will need enough line to reach the top of your mast, go forward to the bow and possibly run back to the cockpit. I would recommend 5/16th line for this task, preferable something in the "higher end" of a non-stretch type. 3/8ths will work too, that's what I have on my boat. You will also need a block attached to the masthead. Most Catalina 25 ners have a masthead where the forestay attaches to the aftermost, forward clevis pin. The outermost clevis pin is where you should attach the block. It needs to be a 360 degree swivel block and be able to hold a fair amount of load. Most block manufacturers sites online will be able to help you determine the load and choose the block. To attach the halyard to the sail you will need a 360 degree swiveled snap shackle. Lastly, you are going to need a cleat. Because dousing a spinnaker can at times be of great urgency, you will want a cleat that you can easily undo. This means you’ll most likely want a cleat such as a Cam Cleat on the mast, or a Clutch Cleat if you run the line back. If you are racing, you might want to consider using a Cam Cleat at the mast, since its easiest for the bowman to hoist the sail anyway.

SHEETS

SHEETS Now that we can actually hoist the sail, lets add the next lines. I separated them into two sections above, but in reality, it just depends on what tack your on as to whether the line is a sheet or a guy. You will need, again, 5/16ths or 3/8ths line. This time two of them. Ideally, to give you the most options, each line will need to be long enough to start from the aftermost point on the rail, run forward to the bow and back to the companionway, plus a foot. Yes, that’s a lot of line. That amount of length gives you a couple of different dousing options, especially if it gets hairy and you can’t get a guy out on the bow. You will connect these lines to the Clews (there aren’t any tacks on a radial spinnaker) on your spinnaker using snap shackles. So now you that you have a sheet and a guy, you’ll need to attach them to the boat. This can be done by running the lines through pop up blocks aft on the rail, or, some people use cheek blocks on the outer coaming, backed with good marine plywood. In any case they need to be as aft as possible. From there, the lines need to run forward to your second set of cockpit winches, or, to the cabin top winches. While its possible to go with only one set of winches when not racing, the great ease of dousing the spinnaker while having another sail hoisted makes having that second set an almost must.

GUYS

The guy, the guy is the windward sheet to which the outboard end of the pole attaches. It also will has a different attachment point on the boat. This location is the beamiest part of the boat, at the rail. So in order to do this, we need to “Twing” this line to its new location. To start, get two dinghy snatch block, Holt Allen makes a good ones and there are others out there. Attach a 5 to 8 foot line to this block. Run that back to a Harken model 2616 or similar combination block and cleat mounted on the rail at the widest beam of the boat. Do this on both port and starboard. These are your twing or tweaker lines. They Bring the point of purchase forward underneath the pole.

POLE

The last item required is a spinnaker pole. The pole should not exceed the “J” dimension, i.e. 10.5 feet and should be a double bridled pole. The pole needs to be attached to the forward part of the mast. To do this you will need a T-track 4 to 6 feet long as well as a spinnaker pole car. The inboard end of the pole attaches to the car on the track. There are two final lines needed, one being the topping lift (pole up) the other being the foreguy (pole down). The topping lift is similar to a halyard. A block needs to be placed midway up the mast. Another line (again I used 5/16ths) runs through the block back down to the deck. It can either run aft, or be cleated at the mast. It needs a snap shackle on the end. The final line is for the foreguy. This runs from a block forward back to the cockpit and has a snap hook (wichard) fitting. It can also be a snap shackle. We positioned our foreguy block on the forward base of the mast. Catalina has theirs positioned on the foredeck itself. In my opinion, for boats our size, the few feet of difference has no effect or relevance.

How To Rig

Starting with your sheets and guys, clip them both to the lifeline even with the shrouds. 90% of the time, when you are starting you will have a starboard pole, so clip the lines to port. Run the portside line through the dinghy snatch block. (which should already be in place with its tweaker line running through the deck block cleat) From there run it through your aft pop –up block on the rail, (or cheek block as noted above) then into your cockpit and around you winch. Again, I recommend a second set of winches for this if you are racing.

Take your second sheet and run it from the lifeline, outside of everything, around the forestay, back through the tweaker block to the cheek block and into the cockpit to the winch.

Your spinnaker pole is then attached to the mast. The upper bridle is attached to the topping lift, the lower bridle to the foreguy. While still making sure the spinnaker guy is outside of the pulpit and forestay, attach the outer end to the pole. Now hoist the pole using the topping lift. (be sure to uncleat the foreguy). Once you have it parallel to the deck, cleat the topping lift and downhaul

Attach the Halyard, to the head of the sail, and the sheet and guy to the clews. You are now ready to hoist, begin to bear away down wind keeping the wind to your starboard quarter. Pull on the guy, this should move the pole off the forestay, you want to bring it back so that it is 90 degrees to the wind. You may need to uncleat the foreguy to do this. (this is why running it to the cockpit is the ideal configuration.) Make sure that the tweaker is pulled in on starboard and allowed to run free on port.

Hoist the sail and enjoy. For optimal sailing, keep the pole 90 degrees to the wind, parallel to the deck and try and keep the heights on your clews even. Also, never let your pole go farther forward than 1.5 feet off the forestay.

How to Douse

Now to douse – its easiest to do with a whitesail already up, so hoist your jib inside the spinnaker to start. There are two options, the first being the trigger method, and is probably the easiest to do without any errors, but can sometimes be hard on the sail. The second is the runaround method and is almost as easy..

The trigger douse: Send your foredeck man forward and allow your spin pole to go forward by easing the guy. Have him pull the lanyard on the snap shackle. At the same time a trimmer will need to grab the sheet from above the lifeline and begin to gather the foot of the sail. After pulling the trigger, the foredeck man lowers the halyard as necessary. Bring the sail into the cabin. Then be sure to clean up your lines for the next leg.

The run around method simply requires the guy to be completely eased forward while the spinsheet is brought in. The halyard is also lowered at the same time. For this dousing, you really want the genoa up and flying. The sail, again is brough down directly into the cabin

Cost Saving Alternatives

Use the runaround douse method and you can tie bowlines onto the kringles in the sail saving on 3 snap shackles.

Boats our size really don’t need a downhaul (for-guy). A bungee will work fine.

Extra winches are not a necessity

Being able to move the spin pole on a car is a luxury, a single pole ring can suffice in many cruising situations.

Instead of the expensive twing line situations, use lightweight blocks instead of dinghy snatch blocks. Run them through a spare set of rail block to a inexpensive cam cleat.

Another alternative is to attach a second line to the clue snap shackles, run those lines through your spare rail blocks. When you gybe, use those lines for guys and let the sheet float free.

Edited by - Champipple on 07/20/2010 04:05:07

ajacobs
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2010 : 17:25:49

We have our new spin! We finally have almost all the lines and hardware in place and we are down to one thing. Where to mount the pole when we aren't using it. There isn't a lot of room on deck but we have a really nice long track already on our mast that is long enough to mount the pole on the mast but we can't figure out how we would disengage the car pull-pin that runs along the track and locks it in place when the car is up high and engaged; the pull-pin will be 10.5 feet up the mast.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2010 : 15:04:51

Swing it around the other way and put the car and pin on the bottom. Then hold the top of the pole to the track with a snap in device on the track or even tie the pole to the mast with part of the topping lift.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2010 : 08:21:59

I used two "Aussie rings" and clipped my pole along the life lines. Available at murrays.com

Edited by - on

ajacobs
Deckhand

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9 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2010 : 12:33:29

Thanks to everyone for your advice. We finally got all the bits and pieces in place and flew our new chute for the first time a few days ago. We still need to get a picture of the full sail but there were only the two of us on the boat so this was a great start.
Fantastic!

Edited by - on

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.