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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Optimum Turn

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Oksky
1st Mate

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Canada
40 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/03/2010 : 08:49:55

I just started racing my 1990 wing keel and have been reading about racing tactics etc. I read a section on turning the markers and there is apparently an optimum turning radius for each boat. Any thoughts on what that might be for a Catalina 25?

Mike Payne
1990 Catalina 25
SR/WK

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2010 : 09:21:10

I find the best "tactical turn" meaning optimum in the absense of other boats is to come in tight, turn fairly sharp around the mark, and have about a boatlength radius coming out of the turn. Tight in, wide out. I've tried it the other way and it lets the door too open for other boats to sneak inside.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2010 : 09:04:37

There are two ways to round a mark. Seamanlike and tactical.
Seamanlike is done in the absence of other boats and is the opposite of Jim's method - you approach the mark about a boat length wide and then turn to round tight to the mark - this reduces the amount of rudder that you need and avoids needlessly slowing the boat.
When other boats are also rounding, the best approach is to come in tight (stops the competition from rounding inside) and leave the mark as close as possible - this prevents any boat rounding behind you from cutting inside of you if you leave the mark wide. Our boats are 8' wide and if you leave me 9' between you and the mark I'm rounding inside you!

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2010 : 10:32:18

Its true the U turn around the mark protects your position but it is also slow. You have to decide based on tactics and race situation. I race in a PHRF fleet and I'm the slowest boat out there by a wide margin so I'm usually alone at the upwind mark (I catch them downwind in light air).

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SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2010 : 07:10:48

I dont know what the optimum "turning radius" measurement really is, but it probably varies with wind/wave conditions any way. Just like a tack, a nice steady turn is best - not too much rudder action as that acts as a brake. If you're hauling on the stick, it's too much. If you're easing the stick around, you're probably good.

For roundings:
At the ww mark, it all depends on where I am on the layline. Whatever it takes to make the mark w/o hitting it.

After the rounding, it depends on where the traffic is ahead and/or behind as to how high I'll stay after the rounding/set. It also depends on the current wind shift and whether or not the set's going well.

I follow the same school as Derek at the lw mark: if there's not a boat threatening inside of me, pass the mark at about 1bl out and round close while trimmed and up to speed for the beat. If someone's threatening the inside, I'll stay close (or even high) to keep them from gaining an overlap. This means I'll be coming in close and out wide if I turn correctly (not using too much rudder).

Does that give the attacker a shot at the inside after the mark? Yes, as well as any boat that was on the outside and is smart enough to see the situation develop and go for an inside ww position. Go ahead, let 'em stick their nose in there. Unless you completely hose up the rounding you'll be just as fast as they are but you'll be slightly ahead. They wont be able to live long that close on your ww hip. And if they need some encouragement to tack off, just overtrim your main a bit.

[Note: if you're racing PHRF, be very careful with this in a mixed boat fleet - if the boat you let inside/ww of you is bigger/faster than you are you could end up in a world of feces as he rolls you to ww. If you're rounding with bigger/faster boats, do what you can to make sure you have the inside/ww position coming out of the mark]

Now then - if you want the R, stay on. If he also wants the R he can come back but he'll already be down 2 tacks to you and with enough separation that you'll have room to tack to S and have the ROW on the crossing. If you want the left, stay for a couple of bl's after his tack then follow. You wont be down any tacks and now have the inside on him going L and on S tack.

My $0.02
Jim

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2010 : 12:16:52

In reality, everyones answer here is fairly correct. It depends on the wind direction, what the boats around you are doing and where the next mark is set. Experience is the real key.

The turn radius should be the one that maximizes boat speed, doesn't sacrifice your position, and gets you the the better side of the course for the next leg all without hitting anyone else, hitting the mark or fouling anyone.

In the beginning I'd concentrate on turning the mark cleanly with minimal loss of boat speed. Start wide and gradually fine tune. Get the crew trained to constantly trim through the turn, get the new sail changed (if applicable) get the pole up/down etc. Once you are set on the new leg get to the correct side of the course as soon as possible.

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Oksky
1st Mate

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Canada
40 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2010 : 18:59:28

Well that helps. My first two races were DNF and the third was 18 minutes behind a Santana 23. The Last race I was only 6 minutes off the lead. Going to the upwind marker I was actually leading, but in all the races as soon as I rounded the marker I was dead in the water and everyone pulled away from me. To much rudder and incorrect position going in. I'll get out my pencil and paper and see what I can put together from your comments. I may never win but I sure am having fun.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2010 : 20:42:20

Some bigger-boat racers I know emphasize starting the turn gradually, increasing it steadily, and then reversing the process coming out of the turn, with the objective of minimizing rudder drag and maintaining momentum. In other words, don't spin the wheel or slam the tiller over--do either somewhat slowly--on tacks as well as roundings. This oversimplifies conditions at a crowded mark, of course... but in a PHRF fleet (as opposed to one-design or match races), speed is generally more important than the inside position of a particular boat that might correct out differently from you. The guys you really need to beat on corrected time are probably somewhere else, and you need speed throughout the course to beat them.

My belief, both around a dock and on the course: More than about 40 degrees and your rudder does less steering and more braking. With a tiller, you can definitely feel where it starts happening.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2010 : 07:03:12

I agree with Duane. The decision as to when to start the turn depends on the position of the boats ahead of you and behind you. If the boat ahead is passing close to the mark, then start your turn wide of the mark, and try to turn inside of him. If he started his turn close to the mark, he'll have to come out of it on the other side, wide of the mark. However, don't forget about the guy behind you. If you leave him an opportunity to gain an advantage over you, he'll take it.

On the subject of the turning radius, you should turn the boat using the least amount of rudder pressure as possible, and your turn should be coordinated with the jib tailer. If you turn too quickly, he won't be able to get all the jibsheet tailed in before the jib loads on the new tack. If that happens, he'll have to use the winch handle to bring it in the rest of the way, and that makes for a slow tack. It also means that, until he can get it tailed in to closehauled, the boat will begin the next tack bearing off on nearly a beam reach, and that means the boat will be losing precious ground to windward, while the better-sailed boats will be driving hard to windward. Watch the tailer, and steer the boat through the turn so that the jib is luffing parallel to the rail until the tailer has it nearly all the way in. Then bear off and load the sail. In moderate or stronger winds, the tailer will still need to use the winch handle to fine-trim the sail for closehauled, but it should only require about one turn of the winch handle, or less.

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SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2010 : 07:54:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oksky
I may never win but I sure am having fun.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You're already winning then!

Jim

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Oksky
1st Mate

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Canada
40 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2010 : 17:11:20

So this weekend we had a single hand white sail race. I took the info from here and gave it a shot. Still never won but I finished sixth out of ten. It really made a difference keeping the turns wider even though a couple others snuck in under me, in the end the speed I retained had me in front of them before they were able to pick up speed again. The difference in the end was very obvious of course. These guys really know how to sail the boats they were in. Now to work on my down wind sailing. I definitely suck at that, lol. Thanks for all the info guys.

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