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Water coming in the drain when heeling?

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/07/2010 : 21:16:07

We went out for a sail on the Delaware this afternoon. Forecast was 6 (statute) mph wind, so I was prepared for another day of mostly motoring. But we were very pleasantly surprised by a steady breeze, although its direction was shifting gradually from WSW to S during the course of our sail. At one point things got a little strong, with white caps, and the boat healed over a bit. I did not think it was excessive, although it was the steepest heel we've experienced with this boat. My wife had to go down below for a second and she said that water was coming up the galley drain into the sink. I let out the main sheet and furled the jib to reduce the heel, even though I did not think it was excessive.

Like most C250s that I'm aware of, there are no seacocks on the drains for the galley or head. Should there be? Was the water coming in a sign that we were heeling excessively? I don't really have a feel for this boat yet, so not sure what is normal and what is extreme.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/07/2010 21:16:34

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5882 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2010 : 06:56:32

Rick, my boat was a C25, but I sailed enough friends' C250s to know that the C250 doesn't like to heel. It sails much better and faster when upright. I also used to race a friend's J24, and, when heeled excessively, it took water in through the cockpit scuppers, which made the floor wet and slippery at a time when you most needed good footing.

Whenever something like that happens, you can almost always interpret it to mean that the designer didn't intend for it to be sailed that way.

Edited by - on

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2010 : 12:11:58

Rick,
I put an in-line check valve between the drain and the sink thru-hull on my boat. I should mention that I am using that thru-hull for the automatic bilge pump only and not the sink itself. here is a link to the Raritan 3/4 inch check valve through West Marine.
Willy

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=12368&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=10111&subdeptNum=10636&classNum=10639

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2010 : 13:04:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by willy
 Rick,
I put an in-line check valve between the drain and the sink thru-hull on my boat. I should mention that I am using that thru-hull for the automatic bilge pump only and not the sink itself. here is a link to the Raritan 3/4 inch check valve through West Marine.
Willy

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=12368&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=10111&subdeptNum=10636&classNum=10639
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Willy, thanks for your suggestion. I have been debating putting a tee into the sink drain for an automatic bilge pump, with anti-siphon loop to prevent water from getting into the bilge. Your check valve sounds like another option. I want to avoid another hull penetration if at all possible, and the sink drain is so close, it would provide a lot less viscous resistance vs. going all the way to the stern.

How/where do you drain your sink?

I should clarify my prior post a bit. I spoke to my wife to get more specifics on what she saw. Water was not gushing, or even flowing continuously. She could hear a gurgling noise and a few drops coming up into the sink at a time. Because of the way the boat lies in the water and the flat-bottom sink, any water that gets into the sink accumulates in the back corner. (I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about). I am sure the boat was never heeling so much that the sink was below the waterline. Rather, since we were beating into the wind with a few white caps, I suspect that the occasional wave would slap against the through-hull and splash up into the sink.

I remember noticing that we were heeled enough that the top of the windward gunwale, which normally slopes outward slightly, was basically level. I suspect it is designed that way so you can sit on the windward side, back against the lifeline, while the boat heels. So I do not believe the boat was heeling more than its design spec. The wind really was not all that strong -- unlike today, where we have 30 mph sustained with gusts to 45-50. I went to a neighboring marina to look for a friend, and the floating docks were churning so much I turned around and headed for land!

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/08/2010 13:06:50

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2010 : 21:55:58

I suspect it was wave action. We have heeled over 30 degrees frequently and have never had water come up into the sink. The boat is faster sailed with less heel.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 05/08/2010 21:56:16

watercayman
1st Mate

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Cayman Islands
49 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2010 : 07:33:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 I suspect it was wave action. We have heeled over 30 degrees frequently and have never had water come up into the sink. The boat is faster sailed with less heel.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Agree - I read your note on Friday and set out to test yesterday, Rick.

17 kt wind with gusts to about 22. Double reef main + about 100% jib. I put a paper towel in the sink to see if any water came up (I don't recall ever seeing any before.) Waves were about 2.5 - 3 feet.

Heel was constant at about 15 degrees, but on many occasions I hit 25-30 degrees. I poked my head into the cabin and heard the gurgling noise quite a bit, but at the end of the sail, the towel was bone dry.

Sounds like a strong wave may have hit just right.

Edited by - on

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2010 : 10:44:49

Rick,
I only use my sink for a catch-all. Wallet, keys, etc when I go aboard. Never filled its tank with water. The gurgling you are hearing should not really ever present a problem, I put the check valve on because the bilge pump is below the waterline and I'm pretty sure gravity would be working against me should thru-hull go underwater when heeled.
Willy

Went out in 15 to 20 knots with lots of whitecaps on Friday. Took the rest of the weekend off as we hit 25 to 30 with big gusts down here!!!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9047 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2010 : 12:38:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by willy
 I put an in-line check valve between the drain and the sink thru-hull on my boat. I should mention that I am using that thru-hull for the automatic bilge pump only and not the sink itself.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...I have been debating putting a tee into the sink drain for an automatic bilge pump, with anti-siphon loop to prevent water from getting into the bilge. Your check valve sounds like another option.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">(1) If the thru-hull for your sink is below the waterline (as it is on the C-25), you should not use it for a bilge pump. That should exit as high on the hull as you can reasonably get. And I wouldn't "T" a bilge pump to a thru-hull with something else--you want the water to go straight out and only out. If the USCG saw that arrangement (and they do look), they'd firmly advise you to re-do it.

(2) A check valve is not recommended on a bilge pump--it is generally estimated to reduce the efficiency by as much as half. A loop will not prevent back-flow siphoning unless it's vented, such as through the deck.

(3) On a sink drain, a check valve is likely to reduce flow by 100% due to insufficient pressure and eventual gumming-up. A ball-valve seacock is a better solution, although it sounds to me like you're trying to solve a problem you don't have.

All advice in my post is worth about what you paid for it...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/09/2010 12:48:12

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2010 : 19:13:58

Dave,
Valid points well made. Rarely have water in the bilge...as I have a 250... it actually only comes with a manual whale pump. (automatic was obviously my install). Thru-hull is well above the water line on the 250 unless your heeled over +20 degrees. I reef a lot as heeling over +12 degrees in the 250 actually slows it down considerably. The boat is basically overpowered to start out with but that's nice for sailing in 5 knots of breeze. All of that being said a ball valve seacock would definitely have been the best way to go.
Willy

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2010 : 20:28:36

I agree with Stinkpotter's advice. If I had unlimited time and willingness to make another through-hull penetration, I would do exactly what he is saying. Until the off-season I am not willing to do that. Right now I only have the manual bilge pump. I would like to have an automatic pump to protect against a slow leak when I'm away from the boat. If the project is too time consuming I will not do it, so I'm looking for something that will get me some improvement for now, with the option of adding another through-hull later. In other words, it's always a compromise, and I'm searching for something that will get me some improvement for this season, even if it's not completely optimal.

Previously I was considering hooking up the automatic pump to the end of the manual pump line. I might still do that, but it does seem like tee-ing into the sink drain might get me automatic function without sacrificing any safety vs. what I have now. I looked in the cabinet today, and the through-hull is about 9" below the bottom of the sink (and well above the water line, as Willy pointed out. There is room for a loop that goes 12" above the through-hull - all the way to the top of the counter. It does not even need an anti-siphon valve, because the sink drain provides that (as long as I don't plug the drain - maybe I'll add anti-siphon valve at the top after all). So I am considering something like this:

<center>

</center>

While this does not get the redundancy of a dedicated exit line, I don't see any severe sacrifice of safety vs. what I have now. I do get some immediate benefits. Most likely mode of failure is for the flapper-type check valve to fail in the open position due to debris, in which case water from the bilge would go into the sink until the hydrostatic head was enough for it to be forced out the through-hull fitting - just like water in the sink currently drains.

The key factor here is that the through-hull is well above the water line. If the boat heels enough to submerge the through-hull, the loop goes higher than the sink drain, so water would have to overflow the sink before it would establish any siphon into the bilge.

Note also that the pump does not have to push through the check valve. The flapper valve is there only to prevent water from splashing up into the sink. I could also consider putting a y-shaped connector instead of a "T" to minimize the resistance against the pump.

While the USCG might not like this, is it any less safe than the system I currently have, which has only a manual bilge pump? I see it as an incremental improvement over what I have now.

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/09/2010 20:36:15

willy
Captain

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USA
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Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 10:21:51

Rick,
One problem you may have is that the check valve I bought has a spring to hold the ball in the closed position. Its not gravity controlled as it is usually mounted in a lateral position.
I was wondering if the easier solution for you might be to unhook the whale pump and run it through that thru-hull. It would entail removing the port side and rear bulkheads from the aft berth and crawling into a space that is a pretty tight fit but do-able. I'm not sure how much room there is to work between the whale pump and the thru-hull though...
Willy

Edited by - on

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 10:25:12

Oh yeah...and truth be told...Davids idea of having a valve you can manually open and close makes real sense and that location would make that damn near impossible.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 12:44:04

I do not want to disconnect the manual pump. I think it is important to have a manual backup. But you don't need to disconnect it anyway - the electric pump could push right through it. See my posts on this prior message thread:

http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21340

I am not sure a manual seacock does much good at all for a bilge pump. It you accidentally leave it closed you'll dead-head the pump. And if you leave it open all the time it might as well not be there. It seems a manual valve pretty much prevents any automatic operation of the pump.

Spring loaded check valves are not recommended in line with bilge pumps because they restrict the flow too much, and are notoriously easy to get stuck open by debris. That's way I was suggesting a flapper valve, and putting it on sink drain so that the bilge pump's flow is not restricted by it. If the flapper valve fails it will not be catastrophic - just a little splashing of bilge water into the sink, which is pretty similar to what I experienced in my original post.

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/10/2010 12:46:39

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