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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Tacking with jib only

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3319 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/25/2010 : 17:59:24

I may have found a solution to the problem of tacking with just a jib in high winds (usually the bow just keeps going of the wind and you can easily do a 180!).
We were out today on a family cruise in about 15k with just a 110% up.
I found that, when tacking, if you hold head to wind for a few seconds while hauling in the jib, that the boat doesn't fall off very much and it's much easier and quicker to come back on course.
Wil someone else try this and post their result?

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Edited by - on

cks
Navigator

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126 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2010 : 19:54:10

Do you mean you head to wind immediately after the tack? The problem I've had is that the boat gets caught in irons before it completes the tack.

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SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2010 : 07:02:05

If I understand your issue correctly, you're coming out of the tack with the headsail trimmed close-hauled, but the boat just keeps turning downwind and never re-gains forward speed. Is that correct?

If so, try not trimming the headsail in so hard right off the tack. It sounds like maybe the sail isnt picking up the attached flow quick enough on the lw side, and the ww side gets overpowered (since there's no main, the center of effort will be WAY forward of the center of resistance, and you just keep turning down). Ease the sail more coming on to the close-hauled course, let the wind re-attach on the lw side, and slowly trim the headsail in as you re-gain forward speed and flow over sail (apparent wind). You'll likely end up starting somewhat below a close-hauled course until you regain speed, but then again you're not going to point that well on a headsail only anyway.

Otoh, in higher winds where you decide you dont want both sails up my preference is to use the "downwind" sail - ie the main if going upwind and the headsail if going downwind. That way the CE is always to lw of the CR and the boat should "track" better.

My $0.02.
Jim

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3319 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2010 : 08:10:02

Jim - the problem with jib only, is that if you don't get the sail in to close-hauled you are well on your way to a 180! I found that a very short pause with the sail coming across almost stopped the turning momentum and kept us much closer to course (we were just out for a family sail so I was experimenting).
On mainsail alone the C25 is a real bear to tack but jibes very easily.

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KD4AO
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 06:25:40

I agree somewhat with Jim, I was taught years ago that if sailing with a single sail, it should be the main.

Edited by - KD4AO on 04/28/2010 06:27:03

JudOWNED
1st Mate

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USA
98 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 06:39:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 I may have found a solution to the problem of tacking with just a jib in high winds (usually the bow just keeps going of the wind and you can easily do a 180!).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

lol I guess you "missed stays."

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JudOWNED
1st Mate

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USA
98 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 06:41:19

I guess, that being the case, you could always try wearing instead of tacking.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5881 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 06:56:04

I'm just thinking out loud here. If a sailboat with only a small jib is sailing closehauled, and the keel is providing adequate lift to hold it on its line, then you can sail it for long distances on a small jib alone. But, I think you need enough lift from the keel to overcome the imbalance in the sail pressure forward of the CLR.

I think you guys are focusing on the correct principles (re-establishing a balanced laminar flow on the jib after the tack), but I'm not sure it can be done repeatedly and consistently with a C25. Jim's Capri 25 can accelerate up to speed after tacking more easily than the much heavier C25, and, it might be able to re-establish enough speed after the tack to re-establish enough lift from the keel to overcome the imbalance in the sail pressure. Because the C25 accelerates much more slowly, it can't consistently re-establish enough speed, after tacking, to re-establish enough keel lift to overcome the imbalance, which results in the boat falling off to leeward.

It's possible that, if the sails can be brought over to the other side and laminar flow can be re-established quickly enough, a helmsman with a very sensitive touch might be able to nurse the boat up to enough speed to re-establish sufficient keel lift to let it sail to windward, but I doubt that it can be done consistently, because there are too many variables, and it is likely to only work if it is all done perfectly every time. You must not lose too much speed in tacking, the helmsman must steer the boat at the correct angle coming out of the tack, the sail must be brought over quickly and efficiently and trimmed precisely, to generate drive on both sides of the sail, the boat must accelerate to sufficient speed to re-establish keel lift (and something so insignificant as a small boat wake could be enough to kill speed and prevent the boat from gaining enough speed.), etc.

I think you might be able to do it occasionally, when all the conditions are perfect, and when you execute it perfectly, but I doubt that it can be done consistently.

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SailCO26
Captain

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457 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 07:01:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Jim - the problem with jib only, is that if you don't get the sail in to close-hauled you are well on your way to a 180! I found that a very short pause with the sail coming across almost stopped the turning momentum and kept us much closer to course (we were just out for a family sail so I was experimenting).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hmmm, so how much forward speed do you typically have remaining when you're coming out of head-to-wind? Sounds like you might be coming out pretty slow (no lift from the keel) and/or have a fairly high rate-of-turn going on. Ahhh, think I've got it now - the rate of turn might have been the issue since the pause at the top seems to be helping your tack (essentially slowing your turn rate) and thus allowing the wind to re-attach with the sail close hauled?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">On mainsail alone the C25 is a real bear to tack but jibes very easily.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's interesting. Never having sailed a C25 I cant disagree, but both my CP25 and prior CP26 tack very easily on main alone. The CE is aft of the CR so the boat initially wants to head-to-wind anyway, and that turn just needs to be carried thru the tack. Again, a little over-steer into a not quite close-reach then trim/point as speed builds helps lots. Speed is key - the keel needs more flow to overcome the leverage of the longer arm between CE and CR.

Jibes on main only also risk a broach for the same reason - the CE is aft (ww) and way outside of the CR, so if the main loads up really fast it's very easy to get a round-up going.

But if it works, stick with it!

Jim

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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 07:31:17

If I'm going to sail with just one sail it will be the head sail. The C-25 performs like a pig with main alone, while with head sail(roller furled 135) alone I can get to hull speed quickly. Same thing on my buddy's C-27. We do it all the time when the wind gets to the point where sailing with both sails is uncomfortable. I've never had the 180 problem either so maybe you guys are talking about going out in rougher conditions than we normally go out in.

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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1757 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 08:23:39

Interesting thread. Simple logic would say in heavier wind the 25, as heavy as it may be, should accelerate faster (or at least fast enough) and, therefore, enable a head sail tack to take place. Posibly the issue is defining "high wind". I often sail with head sail alone and despite my mediocre skills (or maybe because I just don't know any better) tacking has not been that big an issue.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9044 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 09:40:34

Momentum through the tack is key, but there are two kinds of momentum: Forward--what you want to maintain steerage and keel lift, and rotational--the bow and stern moving in opposite directions relative to the keel as the boat turns. Too much of the latter with not enough of the former generates the involuntary 180.

There can be a temptation to backwind the headsail to push the bow around--this is a bad idea on headsail alone, because backwinding is like reversing your outboard, braking the boat. There's also a tendency to oversteer when trying to tack quickly--that merely kills forward momentum instead of maintaining it, and can create excess rotational momentum. On genny alone, I try to turn with only about 30-35 degrees of helm, and no more, releasing the jib before it backwinds, letting it luff until I've straightened the helm on the new heading (generally a little lower than the highest I can go), and then trimming the genny gradually as it starts to draw. Derek, that "luff and straighten" part might be what you're talking about, but I don't stop head-to-wind.

My C-25 definitely performed better on the 130 genny alone than the main alone. The helm was virtually neutral--a little weird to me, but easy to handle. I believe the CLR moves forward as the boat gains speed, based on the hydrodynamics of a foil--I think that's why I didn't get the lee helm I could have expected, even though the sail will push the bow around when the boat is stalled.

The best part is that the CE of the genny is substantially lower than that of the main, so you can have more power with less heel--a very comfortable ride in blustery weather, especially with the cars back to flatten the bottom and twist off the top.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/28/2010 09:43:02

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5881 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 10:54:38

Pete and Pete,

If you're using a big, overlapping headsail, like a 150, then sailing to windward and tacking isn't particularly difficult. The problem arises when you try it with a smaller jib, 110% or less. That's when the imbalance becomes so great that the boat wants to head downwind after a tack. Derek is trying to figure out a way to overcome it, but I'm not sure there is a way to do it consistently. If he can do it consistently, IMHO, it's only because, as a sailor, he's superhuman.

The rest of us mortals should probably stick to using two sails, or at least a big, overlapping headsail.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/28/2010 10:57:16

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 14:30:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Pete and Pete,

If you're using a big, overlapping headsail, like a 150, then sailing to windward and tacking isn't particularly difficult. The problem arises when you try it with a smaller jib, 110% or less. That's when the imbalance becomes so great that the boat wants to head downwind after a tack. Derek is trying to figure out a way to overcome it, but I'm not sure there is a way to do it consistently. If he can do it consistently, IMHO, it's only because, as a sailor, he's superhuman.

The rest of us mortals should probably stick to using two sails, or at least a big, overlapping headsail.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah I use a 135 and my partner with the C-27 uses a 155. Friday night we were showing over 8 knots on his C-27 on the knotmeter with just head sail alone. No problems tacking or pointing. On blustery days we don't even bother to take the main sail cover off, which is nice as when we're done we simply roll up the head sail and step off the boat at the end of the day.

I'll say it again, installing roller furling was one of the best things I've done with my boat.

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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1757 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 18:46:18

Pete:

I concur and -- increasingly -- wish I could add such a system to the main

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