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Kite fishing? A new hazard for offshore sailors?

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/29/2010 : 08:58:20

OK, so the wifey and I departed North Palm Beach FL bound for Fort Lauderdale. Offshore about 3 miles - gotta watch out for the Gulf

- we encountered a bunch of private fishing vessels. The AP was on and we were cruising along when suddenly a small walk around crossed our bow and was fairly close. I altered course 5 degrees just out of general principle but as we approached the stern of the stinkpotter, we saw them yelling and screaming at us while pointing away, i.e. we should turn to starboard. I did alter course 20 degrees and they still kept yelling. We were in 120 feet of water and there was nothing in our way - other than them. Anyhow, unbeknownst to us, they were fishing with kites????

And one of these freaking kites snagged our mast at nearly 60 feet and wrapped itself around the windex and ripped off one of the indicators.

We then noticed that we were trailing a long fishing line about 20 yards astern. We never were able to retrieve it, however, when we approached the anchorage in Ft. Laud. a fellow sailor hailed us to tell us about the line dragging from our MAST!!!! WTF???? Anyway, we responded and told him we were aware. Meanwhile, my wife circled the anchorage and we snagged this fishing line on another vessel ripping it off. A 6 inch bait fish fell to the deck and the tackle is still dangling from the mast - meaning I have a climb in my future...

Crazy, crazy.... Just another hazard to worry about. BTW - we saw kites later in the day that were red and green and we saw white ones, probably the color of the one we snagged.

Now I will arm myself with rocket flares and will fire at will when I see these as.wipes...

sten

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 09:44:29

Wondering what the hell kite fishing was, I found this...
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Many different styles of fishing have originated in the hopes of catching sailfish, sharks, and other top water game fish. Perhaps the most effective of these types of fishing is kite fishing. Kite Fishing is a technique of fishing that involves flying kites, and using the kites to suspend live baits on the top of the water. This type of fishing is highly effective for sport fishing off the coast of Ft. Lauderdale, where the Gulf Stream current and the natural reef running along the coastline, coincide. Sportfishing charter boats have been using this technique for 20 years to hook into the wide array of big game species that swim through our waters...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Enjoy the view...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/29/2010 09:45:21

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 11:51:02

Leaving our channel a few years back, a fisher woman decided to cast her line across my bow. Boy you should have heard her scream at me for not stopping. I can still see her standing on the rocks yelling “Turn your Dam boat around, and you come back here Right Now” Sorry Sten about the broken equipment, but I’ll pass on a big Att-A-Boy for the rest of the story

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 12:19:30

That sounds kind of hazzardous or illegal to me. Maybe it's another "law not catching up to society" things.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 13:01:52

People have been doing kite fishing for years from the piers. It is a good way to get your bait farther out. The new "spyder" line ( a metal line ) that is thinner has made it easier to hold lots of line on a smaller reel.

It is pretty stupid to use kites on a boat IMHO, most of the fish are under you anyway, and you can move the boat. But whatever. I think the captains are just putting on a show, especially since the limits on how many fish you can catch are so low.

I'm sorry to say it seems the best thing to do in this day is stay away from other vessels. It is so fun to look at them and wave, but it seems it is just another opportunity for conflict or damage.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 14:38:28

I suspect, reading my clip above, that the kites can be used on a small boat simulate the function of outriggers on a big sportfisherman, to pull upward on bait you want running on the surface away from the boat. That's new to me, but so was Scott Brown... Who knows, you might have hooked a marlin from your mast-head... That would've been interesting!

A sailboat must give way to a "vessel engaged in fishing", but that's only when fishing gear impedes that vessel's ability to maneuver--for example, nets, dredges, etc. Pleasure boats running trolling lines don't qualify. But when I think about it, a boat towing kites to hold bait on the surface (thus fishing) might need to maintain some progress in an up-wind direction, so his "ability to maneuver" might be impeded. And (ahem) the watchfulness of the skipper who doesn't notice kites, much less the approaching boat that "suddenly" crosses his bow "fairly close", might be questioned.

Anyway, as you can see from the clip above, you'll probably encounter this again--particularly around Ft. La-dee-da. Now you know.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/29/2010 14:42:23

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 16:04:49

Isn't that a commercial vessel engaged in fishing?

Edited by - Dave5041 on 01/29/2010 16:05:18

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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1484 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 17:47:21

I like Glen's experience...

Edited by - jerlim on 01/29/2010 17:48:46

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 19:39:08

I might be missing something, but I don't see how a sailboat can be realistically expected to look out for a kite. Unless the kite is to windward of your course (in which case, there's no danger of tangling with it), a kite will always be hidden behind your sails, regardless of whether you're running downwind, or beating to windward. The only way you could keep a lookout for a kite would be to repeatedly move forward, all the way to the bow, so you could see past both sails.

I'm not sure how a court would treat the situation, but I think it should treat it similarly to the way the courts treat a person who creates a nuisance on a public highway. If you erect or place anything on a public highway that impedes the free flow of traffic, it's a nuisance. The person who creates a nuisance is liable for all damages that flow from it. That means the guy who flies the kite has the obligation to control it's height and distance so that it won't interfere with other boats. If he fails to control it so as to prevent it from interfering with the free flow of traffic, he's liable for any damage.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/29/2010 19:41:14

two port feet
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 20:28:24

Sounds to me we will need new radio's and YOR receiver. Then just radio "flight watch" for a vector to sail. This should give the proper separation from the kit flying fisherman. You know like flying (sailing) IFR.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 21:16:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 I might be missing something, but I don't see how a sailboat can be realistically expected to look out for a kite. Unless the kite is to windward of your course (in which case, there's no danger of tangling with it), a kite will always be hidden behind your sails, regardless of whether you're running downwind, or beating to windward...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yup--the tow-boat and the kite are likely to be approaching from your leeward side. Unfortunately, that's not a factor in COLREGS. First is the vessel type and its ability to maneuver; next is the port-starboard thing... This is a sailboat versus (potentially) a vessel engaged in fishing--albeit a form of fishing with which some of us are unfamiliar. The former has to give way. I have to wonder whether the kite(s) and the boat to leeward were hidden from view when the boat was a mile away, or a half mile away,... If so, something was wrong with the "view", and somebody is probably going to have an unpleasant encounter--period. As for the kites, we all learn something every day (hopefully).

This is a little like learning that a tugboat might be towing a barge 3/4 mile behind him, and that the tow cable, just below the water, will possibly sink and kill you if you go between him and his tow. It happens just about every year on Long Island Sound...

Sten learned something about fishing around Ft. La-dee-da, and will probably keep watch a bit differently in the future. Some fishermen are probably saying worse things about him then he's saying about them right now.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/29/2010 21:25:27

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 21:27:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by two port feet
 
Sounds to me we will need new radio's and YOR receiver. Then just radio "flight watch" for a vector to sail. This should give the proper separation from the kit flying fisherman. You know like flying (sailing) IFR.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">IFR on the water... Like that's going to happen!

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 03:03:10

I guess I should be more clear. WE WERE keeping a proper watch. WE WERE well beyond the reach of typical fishing gear as we were at least 400 yards off of their stern. They crossed our path while we were under sail. Since we were under sail, WE had limited maneuverability unlike the private vessel who could have simply driven away as the rest of these folks did. I am not going to turn 90 degrees and backwind my genny very time I see a small 22 foot boat! (We did see him approaching from the 2:00 position way off about 5 minutes before he crossed our bow but we could not make out the kite - which is why we think it may have been white)

We have a large sail plan as she is a former IOR racing vessel, so tacking requires releasing the boom brake, jib sheets, traveler, AND main sheet. This after disengaging the AP and putting the wife behind the wheel. Takes a good 30-60 seconds under the best of conditions. We had less than a minute to react to once they started screaming and pointing. We were cruising at nearly 6.5 knots in 14 knots of wind!

COLREGS smolregs... As far as I know, I need to give way to commercial vessels engaged in commerce. I need not give way to every private vessel under power while I am sailing. Furthermore, as Steve Milby pointed out, the sail was hiding the kite AND essentially the 22 footer had the superstructure of a container ship, i.e. his overall size. I agree that going between a tug and his tow is stupid, I always give every one a wide berth. I do not care to see anyone up close and personal - period. He moved into my space and as far as I am concerned I was the stand on vessel.

I asked about this over happy hour at the local watering hole and the guys I talked to all were shocked that this guy was that stupid. NOT the other way around. Incidently, he didn't chase ME down for losses incurred as a result of this incident. Had I known that there was damage to my vessel I would have dropped sails and chased him down and notified the Coast Guard of the incident.

I might also ad that we too were trolling a line, so in no way did I want to snag someone elses either.

But I do appreciate the stinkpotter viewpoint Dave! Amazing what a couple years of pure petroleum usage does to your perspective!

sten

Edited by - redviking on 01/30/2010 06:47:19

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 05:49:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
This is a sailboat versus (potentially) a vessel engaged in fishing--albeit a form of fishing with which some of us are unfamiliar. The former has to give way. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't think that's what the colregs say. The colregs don't say that a sailboat must give way to any fishing boat. They say a sailboat must give way to a "vessel engaged in fishing." That is a term of art, which is given a very specific meaning within the intent and purposes of the colregs. The colregs expressly define what constitutes a "vessel engaged in fishing."

Rule 3(d) says: "The term 'vessel engaged in fishing' means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability."

A vessel fishing with trolling lines is not, within the colregs definition, considered to be "restricted in it's maneuverability. That's because a trolling boat is able to turn in any direction to avoid approaching vessels. This boat is trolling. He's towing a fishing line in the water behind him. The only difference between this boat and any other trolling boat is the fact that he has added a kite to hold his bait near the surface. Except in very strong winds, a boat can tow a kite in any direction it wishes, because it isn't the same as a boy flying a kite in a field. A boy in a field can't run fast enough downwind to create enough apparent wind to keep a kite aloft. A boat can adjust it's speed so that the apparent wind will be enough to keep the kite aloft. Thus, a boat that is trolling while using a kite to elevate it's bait is able to turn in any direction it wishes, and is not restricted in it's maneuverability within the meaning of Rule 3(d).

Even though I'm not required to do so, I usually alter course a little to stay clear of trolling fishing boats, because, like me, they're just out there to have a little fun, and I think the courteous thing to do is to avoid interfering with another person's fun.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/30/2010 05:50:31

glen
Captain

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Response Posted - 02/01/2010 : 08:17:14

As a child I was taught to keep my kite out of lines. Comes under the heading of being responsible for an action you decide to do, that may endanger your self or some one else. Perhaps we need some more legislation. Maybe we could get Washington to require Kite string to be replaced with caution tape

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2010 : 19:29:46

Ya, I'm probably drunk on gas fumes... But Sten, you said, "...suddenly a small walk around crossed our bow and was fairly close." Sounded like a surprise to me. I wondered about being surprised by a boat slowly pulling a kite... Now we learn that it wasn't sudden and it wasn't particularly close...

As for "vessel engaged in fishing", I said "potentially"--not knowing how the CG might interpret this kite fishing and I, too, pointed out that maneuverability must be restricted to be classified as "engaged in fishing." Pulling a kite that's pulling bait might require maintaining a constant speed and course (unlike ordinary trolling)--I don't know. But I suspect the CG would want to know who saw whom when and what they did about it. Then they'd probably say the kite-runners were wrong, and I'd agree, given the revised account.

Now 'scuse me--I need to go downstairs and sniff my gas can.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/01/2010 19:42:28

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/02/2010 : 03:10:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Ya, I'm probably drunk on gas fumes... But Sten, you said, "...suddenly a small walk around crossed our bow and was fairly close." Sounded like a surprise to me. I wondered about being surprised by a boat slowly pulling a kite... Now we learn that it wasn't sudden and it wasn't particularly close...

As for "vessel engaged in fishing", I said "potentially"--not knowing how the CG might interpret this kite fishing and I, too, pointed out that maneuverability must be restricted to be classified as "engaged in fishing." Pulling a kite that's pulling bait might require maintaining a constant speed and course (unlike ordinary trolling)--I don't know. But I suspect the CG would want to know who saw whom when and what they did about it. Then they'd probably say the kite-runners were wrong, and I'd agree, given the revised account.

Now 'scuse me--I need to go downstairs and sniff my gas can.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

both statements are true Dave. We saw him a ways off and then he either altered course or sped up, or something because YES suddenly he was right there. I was sorting out fishing gear and my wife was in the cockpit too with her book. We weren't hyper focused, but we were paying attention - sort of, we looked around every minute or two - nothing doing. Nontheless, as I said the AP was on and anyone could see that we were on a straight course.

I also believe that the rules of tonnage apply here. I would have sunk him had we hit him and he came recklessly close when he crossed our bow in my opinion. It's a huge freaking ocean, why does this guy want to get SO close to a vessel obviously under sail? But then, perspectives on the water are difficult to judge, just ask the motor yachts in the anchorage that are moving all over the place.

But we have seen this phenonema before. We have been well offshore - say 20 miles or so with no one in sight and some sport fisher will literally hone in on us like a target while we sit there debating whether the Cap is down below with his mistress with the AP on or whether they just want a good look at us. Again, it's not a lake or even a Sound, it's the freaking OCEAN - lots of room for everyone. Common sense apparently doesn't come with the boat.

Hope you got 93 octane - much better buzz than 87 in my opinion.

Cheers.

sten

Edited by - redviking on 02/02/2010 06:54:56

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