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Tall vs standard rig with a wing

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/12/2009 : 16:21:19

In another post I explained that I'm negotiating the price of a 1989 wing keel. The broker and seller did not disclose that the boat is a tall rig (I had to discover this on my own - after driving 600 miles!

)

I've had several people tell me that because the wing is a shallower keel than a swing or fin - it doesn't have as much stability or "bite" even though it has more ballast.

In terms of basic leverage - is a tall rig a good choice for a wing keels? Has any one here sailed both models?

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 10/12/2009 : 17:08:03

I have sailed a tall rig wing. I have sailed a standard rig fin (mine). I have sailed a tall rig fin. Keep in mind the wing keel is longer and has lots of weight in the wings. There is only about a foot difference in draft and that is down low where there is not much fin material anyhow.

In most conditions with winds 10 knots and under you won't notice a difference. In really light air the tall rig will move better.

In winds 10 to 15 knots the fins will outpoint the wings but that has nothing to do with the tall or standard rigs.

In real strong winds you'll reef earlier in the tall rig. Or just fly a 135 when the standard rig is flying the 155 jib.

I wish I had a tall rig. If I did, I'd want a mainsail with first and second reef points.

The C25 (tall or standard) is a stable, stiff boat. The wing is no more tender than the fin. The only difference I can feel is a slightly worse pointing when it is breezy.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 10/12/2009 : 19:37:38

The lower boom of the tall rig is a little less convenient, but I'm still happy to have a tall rig on light days.

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aeckhart
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Response Posted - 10/13/2009 : 12:11:51

I have a TR wing and have cruised along side a swinger standard rig, and raced in the Nationals in the same boat. Jim has pretty much summarized the differences in the two boats. While it's true that my TR wing does not point as well as fin or swing keels, in my opinion it is faster in light air and much faster off-wind. I think you'll appreciate light air sailing, as I do. It takes special skill and patience to keep the boat moving in light wind. When the wind builds though, it is a lively boat. As Jim points out, you need to reef earlier and it is best to have two reef points. My boat sails best, with moderate heel, at winds of about 12 knots. Anything higher needs a reef to be comfortable and stay in control. I have added a lot of non-standard sail controls and equipment to make sailing the boat easier and safer, but they would be just as useful on the standard rig Catalinas.

One aspect of the wing which few concider is that while the fin is limited to launching at a boat yard, I launch at a public ramp, and store in my yard. I save about $800 to $1000 a year. You'll need to ensure you have a tongue extension on your trailer though. Mine is 10' long.

Whatever boat you decide on I'm sure you'll enjoy it as much as I've enjoyed mine these past 20 years.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 10/13/2009 : 12:39:02

A C25 fin can be launched at a ramp using the strap technique. At our club people routinely launch C25 and C27 fins with the strap technique on the ramp.

Another consideration is how deep is the water you are in. We like our wing because it gives us more access to sheltered areas to anchor for the night, etc. I think a wing gives a nice combination of fixed keel (no swing maintenance) and less draft.

Edited by - on

PCP777
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1225 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2009 : 14:06:42

I would not consider the tall rig as a liability, rather I think it's a benefit. I'm really glad mine is a tall rig.

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2009 : 14:57:55

Well! I guess I'll put my mast blueprints and hand held band saw away for now!

Seems that I need to experience the TR before passing judgment. Perhaps I'm confusing bite with stability . . . and yes, I guess we've all tried getting the boat to move as much as possible on those light air days. That may explain why the PO had a single full batten installed half way up the main sail.

The boat does have a Furlex furler and I am considering placing it in storage. I believe you lose some pointing ability with a furler and I'd like to compensate for the pointing ability you sacrifice with a wing. I also enjoy the speed and ease of hank-on sails when you need to perform a foresail change. Thoughts anyone?

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 10/13/2009 : 15:16:25

If you want maximum performance, go with hanked on; we just daysail and cruise, so the relaxed approach of roller furling fits us perfectly.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2009 : 17:54:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 ...I also enjoy the speed and ease of hank-on sails when you need to perform a foresail change.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Like Dave, I can't relate to that statement.

If you enjoy dashing around the foredeck, changing, folding, and bagging sails, we're not gonna sell you on a furler. Having done a little of that, and having had a furler on Passage, I'd never own another sloop without one. Different strokes...

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 10/13/2009 : 20:36:25

I'd never give up my furler either!

Just wondering - if you shorten a tall mast to a standard mast on the C25 do you have to remount the spreaders, shroud attachment points, boom position, etc?

Edited by - Nautiduck on 10/13/2009 20:37:12

DaveR
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2015 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2009 : 05:31:59

I like to be pretty stead-fast about a hank on. That's REAL sailing, right? ............. (yeah, right). But when I think about how easy it would be to singlehand with a furler!! ....... one of these days after major appliances quit breaking at my house I'm going to buy one!!!

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/14/2009 : 05:38:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Just wondering - if you shorten a tall mast to a standard mast on the C25 do you have to remount the spreaders, shroud attachment points, boom position, etc?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Good point--especially regarding the spreaders. I wouldn't mess with that geometry. Many threads have addressed the TR boom height issue, including discussing some mainsails from other boats that raise the boom a little for comfort and bimini clearance. That and two sets of reef points and I'd say you're good to take on anything the SR can.

Edited by - on

tinob
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1883 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2009 : 10:39:59

I converted my tall/swing to a tall wing. While I don't race I'm still questioning my boats pointing ability since the switch. When heeled the downward portion of the wing bites deeper than when even keeled, how much so I dunno. I've noticed that her pointing ability increaces as she heels, "as much as a fin", again I dunno.

Val on Calista, #3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

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aeckhart
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Response Posted - 10/14/2009 : 10:50:52

Do not discount the speed/racing ability of a Catalina 25 with furler. I added a furler because I single hand-day sailing, cruising, and racing. The last three years I raced, I finished third overall in our club's Wed. night racing series - fifteen races with one throw-out. Boats included a Tarten 28, Hunter 34, Hobie 28, a 30 foot S-2, and a Sidelman 25, to name a few. I don't consider myself an expert sailor/racer but I do know how my boat sails and what I need to do to race fast and consistantly. Although I won the club championship one year with hank-on sails, I am satisfied with my boat's performance with the furler. Besides, the first time you're alone and you have to be on the foredeck trying to change your headsail in high wind and choppy seas, you'll wish you had your furler on the boat instead of in storage.

Although it's situational, a friend of mine once told me during my early days of club racing, "always sail your fastest heading". Even if you have to tack more often, speed over ground will often compensate for a lack of pointing ability.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/14/2009 : 11:16:23

Al, if you're racing that well with a furler, it's because of racing skill. The furler significantly reduces sail area and usually sail shape to some extent, so, in effect, you're beating the competition with a "smaller engine." Good job!

That said, I agree with you that a boat can sail very well with a furler, and when the windspeed is changing up or down, it's really nice to be able to roll it in or out, and, when it's time to take down the sails and go into the marina, it's nice to be able to just roll up the jib, and not have to flake it down and bag it.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 10/14/2009 : 15:57:02

Well, as anticipated, you guys have supplied some very insightful thoughts.

I did receive a blueprint of the standard rig mast from Catalina. They said I'd only need to take 2 feet off the top. They also said I could leave the spreaders where they are with no consequence - though I think I'd lower them to spec for aesthetics.

But, based on what you all have contributed above I am going to take the middle road – go with the tall rig but place the furler in storage. I’ve always had a keen eye for sail shape (treating both sails a single foil) and think I can achieve better results with hank-ons. Someone once said that even when you are not in an official race – you are always looking to out-sail the guy closest to you. I’m going to enjoy flaunting my new, unfair advantage. Besides, I can now justify new foresails!

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 10/14/2009 : 16:09:42

Interesting that they said to take 2 feet off the top. That won't raise the boom to the same height as the standard rig though.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 10/14/2009 : 17:03:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 . . . lower them to spec for aesthetics.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

or raise, as the case may be

Edited by - OJ on 10/14/2009 17:04:37

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 10/14/2009 : 19:40:21

OJ, if you want a little more advantage go with a Tuff-Luff on the forestay. I was told that it's worth 3-5 secs a mile.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 10/14/2009 : 20:00:28

I've got an '89 standard rig/wing keel with hank on sails. I originally wanted an '89 tall rig/fin keel. I'm glad now that I ended up with a wing. I don't have to worry as much about where I go in the bay. I've only sailed on my boat so I cannot offer an opinion on the boats with different keels.

I believe the tall rig was designed more for inland lakes and areas where the average wind is relatively light. The standard rig does better down on the coast.

I've been on a tall rig when I was looking to buy and I definitely like having more headroom under the boom that you get with a standard rig.

I have hank on sails and after a few trips to the foredeck in 15+ knot winds and rough conditions my first major purchase (hopefully this winter) will be a furler. I usually single hand and the ease and safety of a furler will be well worth the small loss of performance. Besides it will drastically reduce the amount of "clean-up" time when I'm done sailing. Plus I don't normally have to worry about reefing. I've only done it once in two years. It's just something else you have to mess with.

Edited by - GaryB on 10/14/2009 20:02:10

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 10/14/2009 : 20:42:21

After pondering the underwater shapes of the three keel configurations, I have arrived at what I think are a few likely probabilities:
1. the fin and swing (assuming a snugly fitted keel) should point better, and the difference between them should be miniscule
2. at less than hull speed, the slot on the swing should create enough turbulence to make it the slowest, and it would require the most wind to reach hull speed. The wing might have the least keel drag and have a slight advantage over the fin until its angle of heel gives the advantage to the slightly more stable fin.
3. the center of mass of the keel is deeper on the swing, so standing up to a breeze should rank as swing, fin, wing.
4. I believe that all these differences are very small, and the turbulence of the swing in light air is probably the most significant
5. Each of the configurations fit somebody best

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/14/2009 : 22:06:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 ...I’ve always had a keen eye for sail shape (treating both sails a single foil) and think I can achieve better results with hank-ons.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I would only agree in the case where the sail is partially furled (reefed). I don't see why you can't shape a fully-deployed dacron roller sail just as well as a dacron hank-on. It's a matter of setting your cars right. The major difference is that a hank-on genoa can be cut with a much lower clew--a deck-sweeper. A furler sail generally has a higher clew so the foot wraps smoothly as the sail is rolled up. (...and cruiser/daysailors like the visibility.)

Why not try a season with the rig as you bought it, and then decide whether you really want to remove the furler and buy a new inventory of headsails? You might get hooked!

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bigelowp
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Response Posted - 10/15/2009 : 05:50:10

For what it's worth . . . I would not discount the boat because it is a tall rig with a wing keel -- make your judgement on boat condition and value for the price. If you buy the boat I would start off using the furler. As you get used to how it handles then I would make decisions regarding chcnging head sails and/or shifting to hank-on sails. If/when you think of selling her you will get more if she has a furler system. As far as racing with a furler, while I am not a racer, I see alot of very competetive racing boats in my harbor with furlers. I think it less of an issue than it might have once been. Most important though is getting a solid boat!

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 10/15/2009 : 09:43:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Al, if you're racing that well with a furler, it's because of racing skill. The furler significantly reduces sail area and usually sail shape to some extent,...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Using measurements from the North Sails website for both a 150 hank on and furler, it appears the difference in sail area is around 3%. Would that be considered significant?

My new furling headsail has a considerably lower clew, its about a foot or so above the genoa track, whereas on my previous furling headsail, the clew was about four feet above the deck. Additionally, the old sail had considerably more sail area up high whereas my current decksweeper has more down low. This new sail greatly improved sailplan balance in higher, more stiff winds, but the old genoa generated considerably more horsepower in light to moderate winds. I miss that.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/15/2009 : 10:34:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Al, if you're racing that well with a furler, it's because of racing skill. The furler significantly reduces sail area and usually sail shape to some extent,...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Using measurements from the North Sails website for both a 150 hank on and furler, it appears the difference in sail area is around 3%. Would that be considered significant?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I haven't seen your source materials, and I won't quibble with your percentage, but I don't know of any serious racer who races with a furled genoa, because the reduced sail area and inferior shape significantly degrade speed and pointing ability, which go hand-in-hand.

Many racers have furlers on their boats, including the ones I race on, and they use dacron furling genoas to sail the boat from one racing venue to another, but they don't race with those sails or with those furlers. They race with laminated, non-furling, deck-sweeping, racing sails, that are cut with the largest roaches possible.

If there was no significant difference between furling genoas and hank-on genoas, I'd think racers would opt for the less expensive and more convenient furlers.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2009 : 13:09:43

You're both right... The shape of a furling sail can be adversely affected when it's partially furled--not necessarily when it's fully deployed. Harken furlers have dual channels in the foil that allow racing sail changes--you could say it's the best of both worlds. I've seen some pretty serious racing boats around here that use them.

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