Association Forum - Thinking about a spinnaker.

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Thinking about a spinnaker.

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

cayugaboater
1st Mate

Member Avatar

50 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/24/2009 : 20:25:03

Don't have one, but I want one, and I have the next 7 months or so to get one before sailing season starts again. I Know very little about them, other than that I guess they require extra gear, poles, hardware? so need some advice.

Money isn't unlimited, so am wondering what my options are, what might be best, most cost effective. What extra rigging/hardware is required? Are there quasi-spinnakers (gennakers?) that would do the job or are they a poor substitute for the real deal?

any and all advice appreciated.

89 wingkeel;std rig.
Sail #5811

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1520 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2009 : 08:06:24

There are generally different purposes for the different spinnaker types, and some folks need a spinnaker to race with their boat.

Asymmetrical spinnakers (gennakers) are smaller than symmetrical spinnakers. They generate less power. They can be furled and unfurled using a sock which makes them fairly straighforward to fly when you sail single-handed.

Symmetrical spinnakers require a spinnaker pole with its own rigging. Do you sail with other crew members who are experienced sailors and who could help to handle the spin pole and spin guys? Some of our Association members have learned to fly a symmetrical spinnaker when sailing single-handed. Using an sutopilot is helpful in all these situations.

There is also a recent design that involves roller-furling for the spinnaker.

Both types use a spinnaker halyard that runs outside the forestay and has its own sheeve or block at the masthead.

[url="http://www.ukhalsey.com/LearningCenter/encyclopedia/encyclopedia4c.asp"]Here[/url] is a nice description of the rigging and the flying of different types of spinnakers.

My boat came with a gennaker that I enjoy using in light breezes, and it has a sock. It's shown in this picture below my signature.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2009 : 10:01:05

At the very least for an symmetrical you'll need a spin halyard,spin pole, bottom and topping lift. Some blocks for the spin sheets. You can use your head sail winches. It would be much easier, if your boat isn't already set up for it, to go with a asymmetrical.

My boat came with a complete spin set up but you really need at least one other person to fly it.

Are you considering this for racing or cruising?

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4017 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2009 : 13:16:38

I too am in the same "Boat" so to speak,

Not having either type of sail and was leaning toward the Asymmetrical. I'm no racer, just a cruiser but would appreciate any info on how they are flown, What gear is needed etc. I am a total dummy in this area and could use some help!

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2009 : 14:08:27

first for a symmetrical, you can fly this sail in winds up to 15 knots aft the beam to dead down wind. I'd fly a 0.5 oz sail in winds 5 to 12 and a 0.75 oz sail above that. The boat will really fly down wind on a broad reach. It is common when running with the seas for me to see speeds consistently in the 7.5 knot range.

You can fly an asym in winds from just forward of the beam to a broad reach. A 0.75 oz asym would be a good sail for all around use. It will really power up the C25.

For either sail:

First of all you need a spin halyard block at the top of the mast forward of the forestay.

You need spin sheet blocks on the rail as far aft as you can get them.

You need low stretch spin sheets, each 50 feet long. I use 8mm VPC at 0.85 cents/foot its much cheaper than spectra.

You need sailing gloves.

You need the sail in a turtle bag.

For the asym

You need a block at the deck forward of the forestay. I clip my block on the anchor roller. This is for the down haul. This line should be led aft. You have to be able to winch this line.

For the sym

You need a topping lift block halfway up the mast, line led aft to a clutch

You need a foreguy on a block through the deck into the V berth, line led aft to a clutch.

You need a pole with bridle and trip lines. Mine is from a C27 and is 11 feet long. You need at least 10' 6"

You need a ring on a track on the front side of the mast for the mast end of the pole.

You really need twingers or tweakers to pull the guy (line going to the pole) down to take the tremendous side load off the stanchions (I've broke 2 and bent 2 others). I use poor mans twingers - stainless steel carabiners on genoa cars.

It takes practice, its a lot of work, but its really fun. The boat really moves out with these sails up. The C25 loves an asym when reaching.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2009 : 14:12:09

Oh I can fly mine alone. I can hoist, fly and douse from the cockpit using an autopilot to steer. I can't readily gybe alone. For that it really takes a 2nd pair of hands.

The spin sock helps. I bought one, don't use it anymore. Its good for beginners.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4017 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2009 : 17:34:59

Thanks Jim, That explains allot. I know these boats will really move with them up. I watched one 2 weeks ago, Couldn't believe the speed he had, Hence my curiosity.

Edited by - on

cayugaboater
1st Mate

Members Avatar

50 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2009 : 21:04:27

Thanks, I would be using it for cruising and i mostly sail singlehanded, so sounds like the asymmetrical is what I should be looking at. Would appreciate any suggestions on where might be the best place to buy what I need for everything. Thanks for all the information also, cleared up a lot of questions in short order.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2009 : 06:40:19

John P, UK-Halsey looks like an excellent site to learn about sails period, thanks for the link. An Asymmetrical sounds great, and reading Jim's checklist again I guess you don't need that much extra hardware.
I looked at North Sail's prices. Is $800 a pretty standard price for the sail alone?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5894 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2009 : 08:01:02

When I was looking for spinnakers for my boat, I saw many beautiful (crisp and barely used) C25 spinnakers for sale on ebay for $400. or less. Sometimes they also include a spinnaker snuffer and sheets. You might have to wait for one to go on sale, but most of us have all winter to hunt.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1520 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2009 : 08:41:23

Often when I am looking for some good old boat parts at Bacon Sails in Annapolis, I see folks unfurling used spinnakers on the 50' table to see if they like them. Here is a listing of 8 used asymmetrical spinnakers they have today. You can call them or search online.

[url="http://baconsails.com/database/formkiosk.php?sailtype=101&luff1=1&luff2=36&foot1=1&foot2=36"]BaconSails.Com search results[/url]

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3476 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2009 : 10:16:53

Think about a cruising chute.

Edited by - on

HeelinPatrick
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
102 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2009 : 11:33:03

Jim,

How do you douse your spinn from the cockpit. I have someone on foredeck, gathering it up and stuffing it in turtle bag as it falls, is there a better way?

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2009 : 11:40:28

If you get an asymetric spinnaker, which I recommend, expect a little frustration learning how to use it. It is an "of wind" sail or, as Jim points out, used on a broad reach. It's sometimes hard to understand the concept of using a down wind sail off wind.

Tacking - jibing can also be tricky unless you have sheets that are long enough. They must run completely outside the forestay so Jim's suggested length of 50' per is probably right on, although mine are a little shorter. I believe the rule of thumb is twice the length of the boat. Sometimes a sailmaker will toss in sheets with the sail. Mine did which is why they are a little shorter than recommended, but still usable. They should not be less than 40' long though.

Rather than add two additonal winches, I installed two over-size cheeck blocks where the spinn winches would normally be mounted behind the primaries. I run the sheets through the cheeck blocks to the primaries. It works very well and I saved the cost of the winches.

Your tack line, down haul as described by Jim, should be about 25' long as well. This is so that you can "belly" the sail the broader your reach. The tack is pulled down to the stem the closer the boat is sailed to a reach so you can sail it somewhat like a genoa.

I purchased mine a Sabstad Sails and it's held up real fine. It's a .75 oz nylon.

Jim is right. My asym has taken me up to 12 knots which includes surfing down big waves. It's a gas. Good luck with your purchase.

Edited by - on

clayC
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2009 : 16:51:32

My boat came with an asym and I just haven't figured out how to use it yet. The one time I did give it a shot if it were not for the fact that there was hardly any wind, I think myself and crew would have been strangled by the sheets and lines. I could really use a bit of instruction. Al you are absolutely correct when you say it is hard to grasp the concept. Hours on line can't make up for time on the water with some one that knows what they are doing

Clay C

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2009 : 21:24:50

Here is an easy way to douse an asym or sym spinnaker right into the cockpit or salon. You can do it single handed with an autopilot or double handed is very easy.

Turn downwind. Don't gybe. I repeat, don't go so far down that there is the slightest chance of a gybe or you'll get a wrap.

Prevent the main. I have preventers rigged and ready all the time.

If a sym, pole forward.

Sheet in the spinnaker. Try to get the clew cringle right in your hand or as close as possible.

Let the guy go (or on a asym, the tack line). Let it completely go. You are going to pull it all the way around the boat, through the water, and to the cockpit.

The sail is not pulling at all now.

Pull on the foot of the sail and pull in all the material until you have both the tack and the clew cringles in your hand.

Bundle everything up so the sail is now a sausage.

Stuff it in the salon while you let the halyard go (slowly). This is the hardest part single handed but not impossible just one hand on the sail one on the halyard. If double handed, one man is gathering the sail and the other is steering and dousing the halyard.

Don't drop the sail in the water.

You can do the same thing but pulling the spinnaker through the loose foot of the main and over the boom right into the salon, it is called a "letterbox drop". This is what you do when short handed in big winds.

Real easy to do in light air also.

Note, no one ever went to the foredeck. You can do this with the jib up or not.

I unclip the the sail and clip the sheets on the lifelines and clip the halyard on the lifelines and sort them out later. Both sheets end up in the cockpit and the halyard will eventually need to be walked around the spreaders and back to the foredeck.

When you do this, grab the turtle bag off the bow and stow the pole.

I'll jump down below and run the tapes and repack the turtle bag ASAP.

Its taken about 2 years to figure this all out. All lines must be led aft and it takes some practice. Indiscipline has 19 lines led to the cockpit and we fly both sym and asym spinnakers. But if you need to get the spin down NOW this is the way to do it.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2009 : 21:38:41

How to hoist a sym or asym on a small boat.

Spin halyard goes to a D ring attached to the upper center of the bow pulpit. D ring is well taped so there is nothing sharp. Mine is held with a stainless steel radiator clamp and taped. Spin halyard is outside the forestay the entire way.

Check twice that the spin halyard and the jib halyard are not tangled or crossed. Look up to the top of the mast.

Spin sheets go outside of everything and clip to the base of the spin halyard.

check twice that the spin sheets do not go through the pulpit (they go outside and over).

Turtle bag clips to the forestay and the ring of the turtle bag sits right on top of the bow pulpit. It is outside of everything between the forestay and the spin halyard.

When ready to hoist, foredeck gets the pole up, clips pole on the guy, pole is forward. Boat is not dead down wind but angled slightly. Pole to windward, of course.

Foredeck opens the turtle bag and clips on halyard, guy, and sheet. Note it is not necessary to open the turtle bag if you have the corners hanging out but I prefer it. When you pull the sheets it will pop open itself.

Foredeck says "Prefeed!" Prefeed means the pit man pulls the guy cringle to the pole, and pull the sheet so the foot of the spin is stretched out 1/2 way back or about to the mast. If any asym, there is no pole so prefeed the tackline to the pulpit (only about 6 inches) and prefeed the sheet as above. Sometimes foredeck has to help the sail come out of the bag a little.

Foredeck says "up spin!" and pit man hoists the spin as fast as he can. Do NOT gybe at this time.

Come back and trim, its up and there are no wraps, tangles, or other mess.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5894 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2009 : 00:51:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhartRather than add two additonal winches, I installed two over-size cheeck blocks where the spinn winches would normally be mounted behind the primaries. I run the sheets through the cheeck blocks to the primaries. It works very well and I saved the cost of the winches.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If you don't want to install cheek blocks, there's another alternative. You can tie a piece of 3/8" line into a loop of about 12". Attach a snatch block to the loop, and then attach the loop to the stern cleat. Then run the sheets forward to the primaries.

Edited by - on

C25OBrien
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2010 : 14:19:58

Hi Guys- My boat came with a sym chute. I have flow spinnaker on dinghies and Flying scots. I have 2 questions regarding rigging this up that seem to be different than the smaller boats:

1.)Tweaker lines. We used to just put the guy in a hook that was attached to the chainplate. Jim- Are your "poor man" tweakers adjustable in length? Need they be? I am trying to avoid buying sets of cam cleats and snatch blocks.

2.) Topping lift and downhaul. Small boats don't really need adjustable topping lift and many times just used a shock cord for the downhaul. If I am not looking to pop the chute in heavy air (yet!), do i need to install the foreguy block in the bow, or can i just run the downahul to the mastplate? Would a heavy shock cord come close to doing the job? My problem is lack of deck organizers/clutches. I am looking to install a proper setup down the road but i have a lot of projects that take precedence and would like to get this chute flying.

Oh- And thrid question, do I need to install a new crane on the masthead or can you get a block on there without it.

thanks

Edited by - on

KiteKraemer
Navigator

Members Avatar

191 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2010 : 15:41:42

Theres a good article that came out in the latest issue of sail magazine about
continuous line rollers for the spinnaker-- they look and sound perfect for
singlehanded spinaker flying.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2010 : 19:29:47

The poor mans tweakers don't adjust. You simply ease, then drop the guy line in the carabiner, then haul the pole of the forestay.

I don't think a shock cord could be a foreguy. The loads on the pole can be tremendous. You might be able to get by leading the line to a block on one of the bow cleats.

All my spin lines come to the cockpit and go into jamb cleats. You don't need a clutch.

No masthead crane needed.

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.