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Shroud tensions

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Bortiquai
1st Mate

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88 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/17/2009 : 09:39:07

I've been reading some posts on tuning the shroud tensions on the C25s, and the article in the Racing section of this page.

I've had my 1980 C25 for about a year. The PO told me that the standing rigging was all very new, though he couldn't tell me exactly how new. I had a friend who is a very experienced rigger help me rig up the mast, and he concurred that all of the standing rigging looked in excellent shape and very new.

My question has to do with tightening the shrouds. In the last year, I've tightened the lowers 4 times, usually about 2 full turns each. I've tightened the uppers only once. Right now, they all seem like they are a little loose again and need a tuning.

Do the shrouds stretch that much? I've heard that that is common for new rigging, but should I be looking for something else? When I rigged the mast, I had to use Jaw toggles on the forward lowers, and they were just barely long enough to reach the turnbuckle. After a year of tightening, at this next tuning, I will actually have to take the toggles off because I'm out of room. that's maybe 3+ inches of stretch. Normal?

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 10:33:04

That does not sound right. My shrouds are loose. You can grab them and pull them 4 inches 6 feet up. When sailing hard on the wind, the windward shrouds are tight as a drum and the leeward are loose as limp spagetti. My forestay is tight as a guitar string when the backstay is on, and loose enough to move about 8 inches when it is off. It flops around. My forward and aft lowers are adjusted to keep the mast from bowing in the middle when the backstay is on (instead, you want the mast head to move aft). The are both pretty loose with the backstay off but the aft is fairly tight when backstay is on. When I am not on the boat the backstay is off (mostly) and everything is slacked.

Maybe you are keeping them too tight all the time.

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Chris Z
Captain

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 10:50:09

Interesting conversation. I am sure having them tight for general sailing is good. I would like to get some advice on how to set it up for racing.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 13:02:37

That's not a normal amount of "stretch." I'd start looking at the chainplates, to see if the deck behind them needs to be reinforced, or perhaps at the deck under the base of the mast, to see if the deck filler (plywood) is deteriorating.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 13:53:35

I followed Steve Milby's guide for race tuning, but I have a little more aft lower tension than he recommended. Otherwise just as he said.

Loose is fast.

Tighten forestay to point.

Tighten in strong winds, loosen in light.

With proper use, the backstay adjuster can make a difference.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 13:57:41

I put all new standing rigging on (from Catalina Direct) and never noticed any stretching. And I kept the rig tighter than Jim does--my leeward aft lower was generally the only one that waved in the wind.

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Bortiquai
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 14:28:14

Hmmm... not what I wanted to hear.

It doesn't seem like the mast or deck is sagging (how would you fix that anyway?). I would think that if i had to tighten the shrouds that much because the deck is sagging in, I would be able to see it. I've looked all over, including in the bilge at the bottom of the compression post, and can't see anything out of the ordinary. The other thing that confuses me, is I've had to tighten the lowers much more than the uppers. I installed the upgraded chainplate kit from CD for all 4 lowers. They don't appear to be pulling up or have moved since i installed them.

Last time i was out, there was a pretty good breeze blowing - 18+ knots with gusts (and lots of wind chop). I was having a difficult time keeping her pointed on a beat, also the heel seemed (to me) to be a little much at times. I noticed that the headstay was pretty loose. I don't have a backstay adjuster (yet). Finally, frustated, i beared off and reached for a bit, which was a good time - 6-7 knots.

When I got back to dock, i checked out the shrouds. The lowers, at about my eyes' height (5 1/2 feet), had about 5-6 inches of play. Looser than they were a few weeks ago. The last 4-6 times I've been out, there have been good breezes - 14+ knots. The uppers are looser than usual, but not as much difference as the lowers.

The head and backstays are looser too, but I've only tightened them once in the last 14 months.

Edited by - Bortiquai on 04/17/2009 14:33:46

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 14:46:11

My new rigging never stretched enough to remark on. I wonder if your 1x9 is pulling out of the swages, put a magic marker mark at the swage. Something is nuts if you do not need the toggles anymore. I wonder who made the rigging.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 15:11:34

we have mostly light wind here in San Diego. I tighten up in the winter.

You do have split rings or cotter pins in the turnbuckles, right?

Is it possible it is cheaper 7 x 7 wire? That is known to stretch more.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 15:33:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 You do have split rings or cotter pins in the turnbuckles, right?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's a good point. If you don't have split rings or cotter pins or lock washers to prevent the turnbuckles from coming loose, they can come unscrewed surprisingly quickly. I had one come completely unscrewed, and it couldn't have been that way very long, because I pay attention to those things, and would have noticed it if it had been that loose.

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Bortiquai
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Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 17:18:58

I have cotter rings on all the turnbuckles, top and bottom. They definitely are not unscrewing because there is 1-2 inches of stud inside the turnbuckle (top and bottom) that wasn't there when i stepped the mast for the very first time.

This rig is a tall rig. The PO had a dis-mast and the mast was sheared in half right at the spreaders. It was a pretty clean cut most of the way, but we had to cut about 2.5 inches of mangled mast off. So, my mast went from 30 feet to 29 ft 10 inches. Because of this, the shrouds were too long. So, we had to cut them just above the swaged studs, and added swage-less terminals by Sta-Loc. I didn't put these terminals on, I had them professionally done. Since we had to cut the shroud above the original swage, the shrouds were then too short, hence the jaw toggles. When we stepped the mast, even with the jaw toggles, the terminals barely reached the turnbuckle enough to get the cotter ring in. Now, the toggles are ready to come off.

I would think that if either the swage above, or the swageless terminals below were slipping, they would have pulled out by now, with as much as I've had to tighten. But I will mark them as you suggest. Good idea.

Unfortunately, the PO didn't have much information on the standing rigging (other than "it's pretty new"), and I didn't ask him a lot of these questions. I have no idea what the shrouds are (1x9, 7x7, etc..) Is there a way to tell?

I'm going down to the marina tomorrow to take a close look at everything - chainplates, terminals, deck, compression post, etc... and take some measurements. Any advice on what to look for, or ideas is greatly appreciated.

Also, thanks to everyone who has chimed in.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 19:55:05

1x19 (standard on Catalinas) is a smooth cable that looks like single wires twisted together.

<center>

</center>

7x7 looks like little twisted cables, all twisted together, and is more stretchy. It doesn't belong in standing rigging.

<center>

</center>

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/17/2009 19:56:34

Bortiquai
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/18/2009 : 00:40:09

Mine looks more like the top picture.

As I remember, when he did the Sta-Loc terminals, he unraveled the wires to reveal what looked like a thicker core wire (which was inserted into the cone). There were I guess a dozen or so wires twisted around this core. Definitely didn't look like a flower like the bottom picture.

I guess I need to look into this a bit more and will probably get some help. If the general consensus is no one else has to re-tighten as much and as often as me, there's got to be a reason.

Edited by - Bortiquai on 04/18/2009 00:43:01

Bortiquai
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Response Posted - 04/18/2009 : 16:35:38

OK, so I checked it out and it looks like the deck is sagging up (?) where the lowers chain plates are. It's not so noticeable from the deck, but when you look up underneath, they are definitely pulling up. When I got down on my belly and looked at the deck, I can see that the are "bubbling" up. I was having trouble deciding if this was accounting for all of the tightening i've done, but certainly it accounts for most of it.

The good news is, the deck is not sagging at the mast step, and all the uppers seem to be in good shape. This makes sense since I've only tightened uppers a couple times, and nowhere near as much.

So, now to the next question. How do I fix this?

As I mentioned, i've got the upgrade Lowers Chainplate/eyebolt kit from CD. The chainplates that came with this are considerably smaller area than the original (this i can tell from the rust stain that outlines the new chainplate.

Thanks again to everyone who has helped out. I wish i could remember who told me that stretching is normal. Wasn't someone on here, i know that much. At least i realized the problem before it ripped through the deck, thanks to your help.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2009 : 20:47:08

Hate to say say it, but I'm suspicious your problem is rotted plywood deck coring, which allows the anchors for your lower chainplates (on the cabin liner) to compress up toward the exterior cabintop. This is conceivably a DIY fix (if you do a lot of reading), but I think you need a professional to take a look. This is serious stuff.

Sadly, this is another example of why a purchase should be subject to a professional survey. The surveyor uses a moisture meter to detect these problems--not to mention his trained eye. The danger is that the solution can be a huge expense relative to the cost or value of the boat. That's why I preach this sermon for buyer after buyer, with replies here that people can read our Tech Tips on surveying their own boat to save $350 when buying a boat.

Sorry. Curmudgeon out.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/19/2009 09:26:36

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/19/2009 : 02:32:06

Without being able to see the situation up close, it's hard for us to suggest a remedy. The chainplate upgrade kit might be enough to do it. If it won't spread the load enough, then I'd suggest you get some stainless steel plate and fabricate a pair of backing plates that are big enough to do the job. If you don't have the tools to do it yourself (I don't), then I suspect you can find a local machine shop that can cut and drill them to your specs.

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Bortiquai
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/19/2009 : 08:37:01

I had thought about expanding the area of the chainplate, but then I thought that would be a band-aid on a wound that needs stitches, and i'd just be back here again eventually. I feel the core needs to be repaired, and reinforced in those areas.

In the Hull and Deck Repair bible, it says to cut the deck using a circular saw, and lift up the laminate. Then chisel out the rotten plywood core, and replace it with new plywood. Maybe some extra glass to reinforce. Then lay the laminate back down and finish.

Seems do-able. Just working in some tight areas on the side deck there.

Lots of research to do. As usual, any input is appreciated.

By the way, Dave, your point is well taken about the pre-purchase survey. The first of many mistakes. No regrets though - I got a low price and knew it would be a fixer-upper and a school's worth of learning. This C25 has been way too good a boat for me to say "I wish I hadn't have bought her", despite these "lovers' quarrels" we get into. Of course the biggest concern is always safety, but if I had a boat that was tip-top from the beginning, i'd have probably missed out on some of those lessons too.

Edited by - Bortiquai on 04/19/2009 08:37:30

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2009 : 09:25:58

Bortiquai, I'm glad you see it so philosophically and are willing to take it on--sorry about the brusque commentary. Your experience will be useful to many people--those who have a similar problem and those who are considering a purchase. (There's more to it than meets the eye.)

Carry on, let us know, and best of luck!

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Old Disco Queen
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Response Posted - 04/19/2009 : 14:33:23

it is probably too late...since this conversation has gone in a different direction...but "how tight" are they supossed to be? I purchased one of those gauges this winter and will be testing my rigging soon. Does Catalina suggest a certain tension (for non-racing)? The previous owner of Old Disco kept these very , very tight. Perhaps I should post a new post.

Stephen

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 04/19/2009 : 15:22:27

On an inexpensive fixer-upper maybe it would be more practical to simply take them to the hull. Since they are only lowers I would think some chainplates along the outer hull would be fine and SO much easier to do.

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Bortiquai
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/19/2009 : 16:31:33

I met with my friend today, and he knew exactly what i was talking about the second I started describing the problem. He said he had to do the same exact thing on his Catalina 27. He recommended what tools to use, and gave me an overview of the procedure. Actually, to hear him talk about it made me feel much better about the situation.

I'm putting together a plan, and seeking out some more advice, etc... I'll take some pictures during the project. My theory is that the water/moisture may have gotten in through the windows, and rotted out the plywood. I know a lot of people have had the leaky windows. Maybe this problem is somewhat common and people can benefit from the info.

And Dave: The one problem with these forums is sometimes tone gets lost or misinterpreted. By no means was I offended by your post, or even think you were coming off brash. In fact, quite the opposite. I see your name all over this forum and appreciate how eager you are to help. I hope it's all taken as just conversation.

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