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US "surveillance" ship in Chineese waters

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/10/2009 : 12:57:46

So whats the deal with US warships going anywhere they feel like? I wonder how the US Government would feel having Chineese, Korean or other armed warships 100 miles off their coast?

I'm curious as to how this is perceived from an American's point of view?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/03/10/us.navy.china/index.html

Steve Blackburn, Calgary, AB
C250WB - 1999 - Hull 396

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 13:35:12

They'd likely feel the same way we did when the Russians flew into Canadian Airspace about a week or so ago.

Oh look, the Chinese had the Same response we did.

This is really quite petty, and won't amount to anything. And the Cuban (Communist) Navy *IS* 100 miles off the US Coast, with a guarantee that the States won't invade per the "Bay of Pigs" treaty. BTW - Russia is arming them again.

you can't really form an opinion off one news article, or even one news story since the media willonly present it in a way that keeps the story selling.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 13:45:53

Also, the Impeccable is reported to be an unarmed vessel staffed by both civilian and Navy personnel. And China has asserted that almost the entire south China Sea is its territory, which the rest of the world does not accept.
Be cautious about what you read from the Comm News Net.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 13:55:23

Remember...Boats...not politics

So this US ship was a sort of sub tender painted white - maybe the former USN Catalina owners can explain what it actually does.

In today's Washington Post the ship was white! This photo is from the USNavy.

Isn't this a sub tender, not an oceanographic ship?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 13:58:54

<high horse>
First off, neither one of the ships mentioned in the article are classified as "warships", they're not strictly even US Navy ships, they're USNS ships, towing sonar arrays, a fine distinction, but one to be made. They have no armament, except possibly small arms, although probably not, the USNS ship I was on didn't have an armory and we weren't allowed to bring any weapons on board, although we carried tons of them in the holds.

We do the exact same things they do, we just don't get our undies in a twist over it (generally). Plus the only country in the world that considers that part of the South China Sea part of China, is China. Do you recall our P-3 Orion colliding with a Chinese fighter some years back and having to do an emergency landing on Hainan Island? Have you ever seen how the collision occurred? The Chinese fighter pilot flew his jet in between the props on the left wing of the Orion, eventually he made a mistake, killed himself and nearly the entire crew of the Orion. This took place in about in the same place. The Chinese blamed us for the accident, just as they're blaming us for this incident.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> So whats the deal with US warships going anywhere they feel like? I wonder how the US Government would feel having Chineese, Korean or other armed warships 100 miles off their coast?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The destroyer I was on has escorted more than one Russian "trawler" (with 42 antennas on the one I recall) out of US waters, which we only claim to 12 miles like most of the rest of the world. They were three miles off the coast of Puerto Rico, which is binocular range if you've got big enough lenses (they did, so did we). Basically we forced them outside of our 12 mile boundary after they developed "engine problems". After the initial contact, we both came out of general quarters (battle stations), and started waving at each other, taking pictures, shooting moons, whatever. It happens all the time, you simply rarely hear about it unless it's particularly egregious. The guys on both ships side's mostly laugh it off as normal behavior, it's simply harrassment, and both sides participate, and generally play by the rules. Beyond 12 miles, you can do pretty much anything you like, unless you happen to be in "Chinese" waters, or other countries who claim far out beyond their littorals.

We were also buzzed by Russian Bear Bombers dozens of times, seemingly close enough to run your hands down the rivet seams on their bellies, or "boomed" by Russian fighters (running over the top of the ship at supersonic speed, less than 100' off the deck, very impressive). We were also pinged by their submarines at close range (deafening), as well as their sonar dipping helicopters (not so much). I know that we do some of these same things to them. Where we do it is the key, we do it in our own waters, not 75 or hundreds of miles out to sea. And we don't stop our ships dead in front of another ship, drop debris in the water to foul the screws, or run in between two ships refueling, or fly in between the props of a surveillance plane.

Probably the two submarines who collided a couple of weeks ago were doing similar things, even though they're supposedly on the same side, they were running drills on each other, doing an intercept and someone miscalculated, and they bumped. This has probably happened dozens & dozens of times without us hearing about it, because nobody wants to admit to the mistake, nor do they want to reveal the whereabouts of their boats, especially if they're boomers (long range missile boats).

We played "Cowboys & Russkies" every chance we got to engage a Russian ship, helicopter, plane, boat, whatever, and I'm sure they did the same thing, only a different name. Can you tell I was in the USN during the Cold War?
</high horse>

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 14:14:59

Very entertaining post David, and yes I could tell.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 14:43:48

Another point to remember (in my lifetime) is the CCG and the Cdn Forces Navy chasing other boats off the Grand Banks. Seems to me that in that situation a lot of ther nations look at us in the same way this news story looks at China... http://tech.mit.edu/V115/N10/canada.10w.html

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 16:02:28

Puts things in perspective. A special thanks goes to David for the precisions. Re-reading my post it looks like a "in your face" attitude post which I didn't mean it to be. In the past 2 years that I've been posting here I think you guys know where I stand on the subject. Maybe I shouldn't write before my 2 coffees in the morning. LOL

I was in the Canadian Military (infantry) for 3.5 years where we did some Northern Territory occupations, nothing that compares to what David has described. Was mostly a glorified camping trip, a cold one I might add. The reason I posted this question was that I knew we have many ex-navy guys here including Paul from the UK that could give the corrrect perspective on things.

About the sub-tender: I didn't even know these existed. Boy do you guys have cool equipment. So much technology.

Thanks.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 03/10/2009 16:10:37

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 17:01:47

Steve,
I have to say your initial post got my hackles up, and that combined with a crappy day at work made me want to dash off a quick, nasty response. However, as I wrote my response, and did a bit of research, I started thinking about it, and I remembered we mostly dealt with these things (the Russians harassing us, etc.) in good humor, and my heart rate dropped. I hope my response wasn't received as nasty, I was shooting for informative & humorous by the time I was done. Hopefully that came through, and I apologize if I was a bit snippy, it wasn't my intention (except at first...).

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 17:33:46

You didn't come across as harsh at all, quite the gentleman that you are actually. If anyone should apologize it is me for not rereading myself prior to posting. I have to remember that I am not American and have to be more thoughtful before making statements or in the way I pose my questions. You see the problem is that I am so Pro-American that its second nature to me and I forget.

On the other hand if an American would've posted such a question on a Canadian site (more specificaly Quebec) you would've seen insults flying left and right. The fact that you restrained yourself from responding in a nasty fashion just proves that you are better than that. Consider this as a test where you passed with flying colors!

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 03/10/2009 17:36:43

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 17:49:30

I'm proud to report that in the year I spent at a forward fighter interceptor base in central Alaska,(also during the Cold War) not a single Russian Bear penetrated our airspace. Remember, the Bering Strait isn't very wide. A few tried but we turned them away with our F-15s. I've seen a number of pictures of them taking pictures of us taking pictures of them. Then everybody smiles and waves, turns around and goes home. Kind of a cat and mouse game that got played all the time.

With that big antenna array, there's little doubt about what they were doing but, they certainly weren't trying to hide and they were clearly in what the rest of the world calls international water. I think this is more about testing the new President's temperament than anything else.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 18:29:20

I don't know what that thing is, but it don't look like a Sub-Tender. My first ship was a Sub Tender, USS Emory S. Land (AS=39) She's still in commission.

Here's a picture of her.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 18:38:52

Nearly all of what I related took place withing a few hundred miles of Cuba. Since our squadron were sub-killers, it was rare for us to be under a CAP (Carrier Air Patrol), so we only got to chase them away with our own targeting radar, and we'd always put two birds on the rails of the double armed bandit (missiles on the missile launchers) to give them pause. That I'm aware of, (keep in mind that I was an electrician on this ship), we only got close to firing once, and that was at a couple of Saudi Arabian F-16s that were harassing us in the Persian Gulf in the early 80's. They pretended to not understand English (English is an international requirement for pilots), and kept referring us back to their ground controllers who "couldn't hear us". We kept them painted with targeting radar at our maximum missile range for quite some time, I doubt if either of those guys had any kids after that incident. The fire control techs had orders to fire on them if they broke that barrier (they never did, but they sure skirted it, they're not stupid).

That was an unpleasant day, it was my birthday, it was also a Sunday, which meant you were on "holiday routine", and didn't have to work unless you had a watch (which you always did, but it was still nice to not have to work on holiday rooty-tooty). We spent three hours at general quarters for real that day, hotter than hell (May in the gulf is hot), no AC (turned off in case of NBC attack), hull sealed to the outside (same reason), only fans for circulation, and guys so frightened that they were sick to their stomachs, which made more people sick, and so on, till the heads were full (no flush water due to the ship being sealed for an attack) and overflowing. Lovely way to spend your birthday. I think I was 26.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 18:44:50

Here's some information on the [url="http://www.msc.navy.mil/N00p/pressrel/press00/press26.htm"]Impeccable class of ships[/url].

Do a search on USNS Impeccable if you'd like to read more.

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Don B
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 21:32:57

Alright! Sea stories! David, Thanks for shaking the cobwebs loose...I spent 3 years on the USS Garcia FF 1040 ( http://www.navsource.org/archives/06/06021040.htm ) playing tag with the Russian fleet. Didn't matter where we were, North Atlantic, Gitmo, Med. we would drop down to 5 kts., let out the towed array sonar and just bop along listening for subs. Once the contact was made, we would send a call out for everyone to join the hunt. In 1979 we were doing our thing in the Med and a Russian destroyer was baring down on our nose attempting to make us alter course. We stayed the course and he comes ripping down our port side, hard to port, cuts through our wake and comes up on our starboard side. We thought for sure he sliced and diced the towed array. Here he is almost 50 yards away and ended up steaming along with us for quite awhile. Interesting to find that they looked quite a bit like us...

Int qrk?

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 21:38:04

Thanks, David, for the facts about the Impeccable class of ships.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 22:56:47

Yeah, except sea stories are supposed to start with "this is no sh..."

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 10:42:10

Saudis in F-16s taunting a US warship patrolling the oil route... Several layers of irony in that one!

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 14:32:43

USNS

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 14:56:07

I just had to look it up.

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq63-1.htm

A Note on Navy Ship Name Prefixes

The prefix "USS," meaning "United States Ship," is used in official documents to identify a commissioned ship of the Navy. It applies to a ship while she is in commission. Before commissioning, or after decommissioning, she is referred to by name, with no prefix. Civilian-manned ships of the Military Sealift Command (MSC) are not commissioned ships; their status is "in service," rather than "in commission." They are, nonetheless, Navy ships in active national service, and the prefix "USNS" (United States Naval Ship) was adopted to identify them. Other Navy vessels classified as "in service" are simply identified by their name (if any) and hull number, with no prefix.

Edited by - JohnP on 03/11/2009 14:58:13

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 15:28:03

You inspired me to look it up, and apparently we have similar designations...

HMCS - Her (His) Majesty's Canadian Ship.
CFAV - Canadian Forces Auxiliary Vessel
CCGS - Canadian Coast Guard Ship
CCGC - Canadian Coast Guard Cutter

Actually, Wiki listat all of them for many countries...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_prefix

Edited by - Prospector on 03/11/2009 15:30:50

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 16:14:14

Yep, my first ship was the USS Barney DDG-6, an Adams class destroyer with guided missiles (the "G" in DDG), and the second was an MPS (Marine (as in USMC) Prepositioning Ship) ship I worked on after the USN, the M/V Stephen W. Pless. All MPS ships are named after USMC Medal Of Honor winners, and I believe they're all considered USNS ships now. We had a crew of 28 on an aircraft carrier sized ship (910' x 105'), and we weren't even technically part of the crew, we were "the Bendix mechanics" responsible for the rolling cargo & lighterage maintenance at sea.

For a contrast, the Barney was 437' x 35' and carried a crew of 350. My accommodations on the Pless as a mechanic were far better than that of our skipper on the Barney. I had two staterooms to myself, plus my own head, unbelievable luxury. Restaurant style dining, the stewards would put together a menu for each meal, take your order (while you sat at your table), and then serve it to you. The only thing you were expected to do was bus your dishes & utensils after you finished. The skipper generally threw a BBQ on Saturdays and put out a couple cases of Heineken for the off duty crew. Very nice duty indeed. Unfortunately our boss was a not quite out of the USMC Master Gunnery Sargent who rode us like we were his grunts. He was actually on terminal leave from the corps when he started the job. Miserable man, I eventually quit because of him. The irony was, he quit less than two months after that, guess I should have stuck to it longer.

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3440 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 16:48:04

These issues regarding international waters are sometimes a bit more complex to understand. There is something to do with ships that pass by "non-threatening" and then the proximity to protected areas. A cruise ship that is just passing by and going to another port probably raises no concerns.

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swanny
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2009 : 16:14:20

I asked my buddy who served 3 years aboard this ship about the incident, he was suprised that the Chinese Gov't made a big deal about it, He said that ship spends a lot of time off the coast of China. He thinks it's a political move with the new Obama administration. Oh and China is spending a bunch of money right now updating their Navy. They are reported to have a Nuclear sub in that area (hmmmm....wonder why we have a sub hunter in that area ;) and they are trying to buy an aircraft carrier.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2009 : 18:39:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> He thinks it's a political move with the new Obama administration.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's almost certainly what this is, saber rattling by the Chinese to test the mettle of the new POTUS.

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