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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Mast Lowering and Raising

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britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 18:49:28

That was on my mind too Henk.

In my case the baby stays will keep the pole vertical so the 'cup' should only have to deal with forces perpendicular to the mast surface (did I understand that either?)

Certainly would not want the pole to come off the mast under pressure!

Paul

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 19:41:17

Here is our solution for a gin pole. We used this, along with the baby stays, to raise and lower our mast on the water during our last cruise. Easy two person job.

The gin pole is made of aluminum and breaks down into two pieces. It has a trailer winch, strong line and a block at the upper end to direct the shackle to the eye in the anchor locker. Also at the upper end is where the jib halyard attaches. At the mast end we built a mast connector using large U-bolts and a stainless steel bimini connector. The bottom end of the gin pole has the matching bimini connector. This arrangement provides a solid connection that will not slip. Mount the U-bolt saddle just above the mast step. The mast saddle is removed after raising or lowering the mast.

We find that using a trailer winch mounted to the gin pole gives excellent control and is easy.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 02/20/2009 19:46:19

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 19:50:48

My thought for our particular case is to use our new spinnaker pole as the gin pole (I know, I said that already). I think I can find a padeye large enough that I can bolt through the deck directly in front of the mast, then use the jib or spinnaker halyard to haul using a turning block at the foot of the jib then back to one of my winches on the coach roof.

To lower the mast, attach the baby stays and the mast crutch, rig the pole horizontally, take up slack on the halyard, for the first time, rig a safety line using the other halyard and lower away.

Does this sound feasible?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 19:53:38

So Randy, you don't use a padeye in your deck, you mount a padded cradle directly to your mast? I'd be worried about denting it?

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 20:47:34

I was going to do a padeye (a chain stop actually) on the deck but decided it would be a tripping and stubbed toe hazard. This setup does not dent the mast at all. I believe the front and rear of the oblong extrusion are the strongest points. I've seen many other gin poles that also rest on the mast. Bear in mind that most of the load is on the lines, not the gin pole. Some gin poles are made of fairly thin wall aluminum or stainless.

Here is the chain stop I was going to use (remove the gate):

The advantage to the deck mounted hardware is that it would save the time that it takes to mount my mast cradle.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 02/20/2009 20:56:06

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 21:16:55

Yeah, but replace those four screws with thumb screws instead, and I can't imagine you'd spend more than a minute or two tightening everything up. I could easily make up a wooden cradle to spread the load around the mast extrusion. I like that idea better than drilling more holes in my boat.

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Arlyn Stewart
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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 22:53:33

I've seen pics of gin pole saddles for the mast that employ no firm connection, they just saddle the mast. Keep in mind the dynamics of what is happening. As long as baby stays are used to hold the mast straight with the boat center line, there is no side leverage on the gin pole as the line from the mast head is being pulled toward the stem fitting so all of the force is compression on the gin pole.

But, if the mast is not held center line, then the tag line exerts a side force on the gin pole and the gin pole then bends or rolls off the mast saddle and the mast will fall. That explains why the baby stays are critical to a mono gin pole but not needed with an A frame system.

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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736 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 09:52:22

Just for information purpose: Here is a system I built from searching the internet and finding a solution to not having to connect to the mast with a pole. This is on my first boat a catalina 22 but could apply to a 250. The 22 has deck available for supports, but I am sure an ingenious method of connection to a stanchion would work on a 250. The "A" frame is very stable and it moves with the mast. It allows one to run a line back to the cockpit. It's hard to see in the pictures but the "A" frame telescopes so it takes up less space than one would think when not being used.. The "Tube inside tube" also gives it more strength and allows for a smaller diameter conduit.

As you can see in the pictures, it was so stable I walked off the boat and took pictures even at it's most leveraged position. The block was from the boom.

Also note: No baby stays. The mast on a 22 does not line up exactly with the stanchions and one would have to put in deck eyes to accommodate the stays. It was so stable, I didn't need them.

http://www.elmhurstprop.com/mastraise/

Edited by - Turk on 02/21/2009 09:55:17

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 11:08:35

Turk, I like your solution. It looks very stable and that is important. I wish I had that arrangement when I had a C22. We used the "three strong friends" method.

The disadvantage of the A-frame is that it is not very portable. By using the baby stays for stability and a break-down gin pole the whole apparatus can actually be kept on the boat if needed.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 11:11:30

Arlyn, I am sure that you are right but there is something comforting about having the saddle secured to the mast.

David, excellent suggestion, I will use wing nuts and that will speed the process. I will also replace the lower nuts (under the first bars) with washers and that will further speed the process. Thanks!

Edited by - on

KD4AO
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 13:36:33

Arlyn, for the "A" frame would schedule 40 1.25" or 1.5" pvc be strong enough? Or is that cutting things to close?

Bob

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Turk
Admiral

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736 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 13:41:26

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[i] As long as baby stays are used to hold the mast straight with the boat center line, there is no side leverage on the gin pole as the line from the mast head is being pulled toward the stem fitting so all of the force is compression on the gin pole.

But, if the mast is not held center line, then the tag line exerts a side force on the gin pole and the gin pole then bends or rolls off the mast saddle and the mast will fall. That explains why the baby stays are critical to a mono gin pole but not needed with an A frame system.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Maybe turning the gin pole into an "A" frame would add even more stability. All one would have to do is add a second set of baby stays this time on the gin pole itself. A simple line from a stanchion to the top of the gin pole and back to the stanchion on the other side. Simple rope line tied to each side. Might help add additional stability to the pole itself and allow for a less robust connection to the mast.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 13:53:04

Turk... staying a mono pole rather than an A frame would accomplish the same thing so using a whisker or spinnaker pole with adequate compression load rating should work fine. BTW, you had a very nice system for the C22 and documented it really well.

My single comment would be that the evolution of systems is now pointing to a standing A frame as being simpler and every bit as effective as the articulating version.

Bob, I don't think I'd use PVC pipe because of its flexibility... needed is something more rigid.

Randy, I agree about securing he saddle, I'd at minimum lash some line around the saddle and mast.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/21/2009 13:54:08

Turk
Admiral

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736 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 19:58:17

What ever one does, it is important to remember just how heavy our mast is and to make sure that what ever system you deploy is stable. I once tried to remove my mast from atop of the deck (wing keel 12 feet up - on trailer- mast down) to the ground without damaging the hull. I called on my wife to help. We never did it. Too much awkward weight. Finally moved the boat into my pole barn had to used a pulley system to get it off.

You don't want the mast to come down unexpectedly! It can cause some damage!

At our club we had a mast go down when several fellow sailors popped it up without thinking it through. Did damage to the deck and mast and worse, they each blamed each other.

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NUTHRTOY
1st Mate

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26 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 10:50:49

In reference to the pictures Henk posted on 2/20. The original early "mast raising pole" is shown without the section that is intended to be inserted into the front of the mast near the bottom. That section was intended to fit over a pin inside the mast to provide a fulcrum for the pole to bear against. Unfortunately, Catalina used a bolt threaded all the way to the head of the bolt for that pin. Any beginning machine shop student knows that threading reduces the diameter of the bolt and therefore reduces the shear strength of the bolt. All the early 250's(5)at our marina suffered breakage/loss of that important part.

I replaced ours after the original broke/sheared off during an attempt to raise the mast. I used a grade 8 stainless bolt which has a unthreaded shoulder reaching inside the "mast raising pole" stub and provides the leverage to raise and lower the mast. Without the pin inside the mast the system is dangerous and should not be used.

We use the early system to raise/lower our mast each year with little trouble.

If anyone is interested in an illustration of this pin, E-mail me via regular e-mail, and I will send it to you.

Best Regards. Carl Schroeder C250WB #75 Nuthrtoy

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 10:55:32

Probably goes without saying but always use an elevated mast crutch at the stern to catch the mast. The last several feet is where the mast's weight can really get unwieldy and control becomes much more of an issue. C250s have a nice transom mounted mast crutch. We always have our mounted and raised to its highest position for mast raising and lowering.

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zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 14:25:10

NUTHRTOY... is this the part you're referring to? As stated in an earlier posting the "pin part", weld to the gin-pole let go during a (scary) mast lowering/raising session and was replaced by the steel pin as shown which now fits loosely into the gin-pole... Since the gin-pole deals only with compression forces it's not required to bold/pin it to the gin pole...

Care must be taken though to prevent the separate pin-part from rolling off the deck and into the drink when removing gin-pole parts

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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1314 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2009 : 14:42:22

Carl Schroeder C250WB #75 Nuthrtoy provided the following interesting, early hull number, C250 boat gin-pole information...

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