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Weather helm and high lift rudder

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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Initially Posted - 01/17/2009 : 22:01:05

The current Sailing magazine has the usual Robert Perry reviews, on page 40 he reviews a Farr IRC 55 with smallish dual rudders. He makes the comment that a high lift single rudder affects handling. His explanation of the rudder lift on a heeled boat lifts the stern and buries the bow. That sounds like the weather helm often discussed in this forum. I wonder if a rudder with a flatter (flat?) chord might help the 250. Is the Ida a lower lift foil?

Thought I would toss it out there.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 01/18/2009 : 11:59:33

I don't think it is the high lift rudder on the 250 that is causing the adverse weather helm. The problem existed on the first run of 250s in '95 when it was equipped with a rudder that was sized appropriately for a twenty five footer but discovered inadequate to control the boat.

However, I agree with the thought that a high lift rudder when countering a severe weather helm problem will cause lifting of the stern when heeling and ordinarily would not argue as did your author that it causes bow down thereby increasing weather helm.

The 250 is a different animal however and manifest the strange behavior that trimming bow down reduces the hard mouthed helm when heeling. Such is contrary to normal theory, which of course begs the question why.

It is that question that caused me a great deal of thought and one that requires going beyond the sailboat dynamics explained in most sailing books.

My theory is that what causes the nasty weather helm on the 250 is asymmetrical hull form lift when heeling. That lift has a center point too far aft that pressures the stern leeward and manifest weather helm. Such a theory explains two prime issues. 1. Why the weather helm is nasty only when heeling excessively and why when heeled far enough the helm is so great as to round the boat up. 2. Why trimming the bow down eases the problem when normally trimming bow down increases weather helm.

The reason trimming the bow down eases the problem is explained by the footprint change of the asymmetrical foil when heeling. Its lift center is moved forward and closer to the boat balance with the changing footprint.

Actually, dual asymmetrical rudders would be great on the 250. The asymmetrical lift of the immersed rudder foil would counter the yaw force of the hull form when heeling without helmsman effort. The problem of course would be maintaining the great swim ladder and stern perch for the wheel. Asymmetrical rudders would also produce slightly more drag.

I added a bit of skeg on my 250 to impede yaw and it helped. I would like actually to have added dual aft asymmetrical dagger boards. I don't think they would have had to be very large to produce significant results. These would be fairly exotic and I can certainly see why Catalina chose to tame the 250 with a far simpler oversize rudder.

Beyond your comment, dual rudders have the advantage that rudder grip is not being sacrificed with heeling because the loss of the windward is gained at the leeward.

Of course the other advantage I've outlined, dual rudders could be asymmetrical to counter some yaw force of the boat design.

Edited by - on

Sailinggrace
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Response Posted - 01/19/2009 : 11:21:55

I have found the solution to the weather helm on my 250. As discussed last spring - I had a rudder made by Randy Blair out of Clarkston, WA, which is now class legal. With this rudder, the weather helm that I have is just what it should be. In high winds 15-20, I don't have the rounding up issues and the ease of steering is amazing, using only a light grip. In lighter winds, 5-15, the rudder response is quick and accurate. If you would like to know more about the Blair rudder, send me an e-mail and I'll connect you to Randy...sailinggrace1@hotmail.com

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
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Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 12:02:28

What is different in the shape or size of the Blair rudder ? Is it more rounded on the leading edge ? Pictures ?

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jlannutti
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Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 12:33:47

As Arlyn pointed out the proper trim can correct the weather helm problem to a very acceptable level. I added ballast to Gracie's ('98WB) bow in the form of two bags of sand. (Total weight just over 100 lbs). With no one on board she sits level on the water with the bottom of the boot stripe 3/4" above the water. When I'm aboard, usually alone, I suppose that the stern is ever so slightly down but not enough that I notice it from the cockpit. This made an unbelievable difference in her behavior.
There are a few other 250's in my neck of the woods and I'm amazed at how far out of the water their bows sit. On one wing keel model the curve of the bow is actually visible. An old couple sail that boat and have told me that they often take it down to Chesapeake City on the C & D Canal. That's a good 40 miles from my marina and as you sail down the Delaware to the canal entrance stiff headwinds and lots of chop are common coming up the Delaware Bay. I mentiond the weather helm topic once to them. They are obviously happy with the performance of their boat so I never mentioned it again.

Joe
Philadelphia

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 15:12:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 ...He makes the comment that a high lift single rudder affects handling. His explanation of the rudder lift on a heeled boat lifts the stern and buries the bow.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">For simplicity, consider a boat at 45 deg. heel... If the rudder is turned to counteract weather helm, about half of its force on the transom is to windward, and half is upward. Therefore, at significant heel, the rudder's ability to counteract weather helm is diminished--not just by the amount of its surface that's lifted out of the water, but also by its angle. That reduction in turning efficiency causes the helmsman to turn the rudder further, increasing drag and pushing the bow down further.

Now, regarding the asymmetric effect of the heeled hull that Arlyn mentioned, the downward force on the bow probably increases that effect. The forward portion of the hull is acting like a wedge, pushing the bow to windward. A wide transom (as on the C-250) means the hull does not taper toward the stern as much to balance that force (the rocker effect), but tends to contribute to it.

The Open 50 and 60 boats, with their dual rudders, compensate by canting the rudders outward so that the leeward blade (the deeper one) is closer to vertical under heel, and therefore more efficient at controlling the boat without creating vertical forces.

<center>

</center>

The windward blade, which is canted the "wrong way", is lifted mostly out of the water due to the extreme width of the hull--otherwise its cant would increase its tendency to push the stern up--see the orange blade below. Shorter blades are possible--reducing drag and allowing the windward rudder to lift out.

<center>

</center>

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/05/2009 15:26:05

Sailinggrace
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Response Posted - 02/07/2009 : 10:24:19

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you on pictures...I have included both the new Blair rudder and pics of my old Catalina rudder - 2nd generation rudder. No more major weather helm, I can sail her with one hand lightly held in winds up to 20plus...OK - I tried to attached pictures and I cant get it to work - can you e-mail me at sailinggrace1@hotmail.com and I will send you the pictures...sorry
Mary

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 08:51:03

Mary,
Posting pics is straightforward, but requires several steps:
- Upload your images in JPG format to the web, for example, to Shutterfly
- View the selected image on the Shutterfly site, at the magnification you want (click to enlarge)
- Copy the image url by right-clicking on the image and opening the image properties. Make sure to copy all of the lines of text of the url.
- On the Forum, paste the image url into the middle of the "Insert image" command in your message.
- Preview and fix if required

What does your new rudder look like? I'd be interested in seeing the curve of the foil, as viewed from the top. This is the season of new rudders for me. I broke my 30 year old one in half in a gale, made a simple plywood temporary rudder, and now am about to install a new balanced rudder from Catalina/Catalina Direct. I might add curves to my temporary job to see how well it can be made to work.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 14:08:52

The problem with dual rudders is that would make our boats look like Mac 26Xs!!

I have 275lbs of crushed rock and the very long 2nd gen rudder. While it is not balanced I think the extra length helps it maintain a grip even when heeling. The combo of the long rudder and the weighted bow results in a boat that I feel handles very nicely.

Of course you can also reef to keep the boat on her lines....

Edited by - on

Sailinggrace
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Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 19:04:15

[img][http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9dc32b3127ccec60f43ce631400000050O00Eas2TRu3asge3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400//img]

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Sailinggrace
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Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 19:15:17

OK - took me awhile to get the pictures - although here they are - Thanks for the directions -

This rudder has helped the weather helm so much that I will promote it to anyone - above ANY rudder being made out there...even those made in Boise, Idaho...

I believe that my computer is having issues, so this is the link to my pictures on shutterfly...if you need more information, please let me know...

http://www.shutterfly.com/lightbox/view.sfly?fid=c6396d94ed7d2a4d26cd1d30d33b21f1

I have pictures from Randy's complete process of fabricating this rudder...

Sorry - I spend more time sailing on Grace than I do on the forum...

Mary

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 02/14/2009 : 08:13:06

A problem with promoting the Blair rudder over all others, is that it is a blade rudder (if I'm correct), and... many 250 owners (especially water ballast) want a beaching rudder.

A beaching rudder on the water ballast allows for launch and retrieve with the rudder shipped. With only 18" draft, it allows gunkholing in nooks and crannies usually only day sailors can enjoy. And... like the center board it is forgiving if accidentally grounded.

It is good that there are choices such as the IDA (beaching) and the Blair rudder (blade) and I admire Mary working with Blair and those who worked with IDA to solve needs that may also be the needs of others.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/14/2009 08:14:30

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2009 : 12:11:00

Mary: You almost got it--you just pasted the URL into slightly the wrong spot. Move the second "[" from before the "http" to before the "/img" (between the //). That'll give you:

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/14/2009 12:12:41

Tradewind
Admiral

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Response Posted - 02/14/2009 : 12:35:42

Is that the second gen rudder on the left? Mine doesn't look like that.

Edited by - on

Sailinggrace
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Response Posted - 02/16/2009 : 21:40:26

Thanks for the responses...I am not really an internet gal and cannot make the posting of the pictures work, although the link does work and I managed to do that - I better just spend more time sailing!!!Thanks for the help though.
In the picture above, the grey rudder is a 2nd generation rudder as far as I learned from Catalina, although they may be mistaken as well. Its a 1996 baot - sail number 42.
The Blair rudder has been great for me as I am racing more in the past few years in addition to cruising. With the Blair rudder, all my weather helm issues have been taken care of and I sail with more ease in 20plus knots of winds. I can also back up to shore and easily remove the rudder to accommodate those beach parties or nature walks.
I have had many different issues sailing by myself and have enjoyed figuring out the solutions with the help of many people, including Randy Blair, manufacturer and experienced sailor, and my very experienced boy friend Wes Vaughn,(both of them sail/race San Juan 21's and other larger boats and then sharing those ideas. Fortunately, the most major issue I had was the weather helm issue and, for me, the Blair rudder took care of that issue so I am thrilled to pass this new find on to others.
Thanks for all your help and I hope to continue to learn things from this forum...
Mary

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 07:57:22

It appears to me that the rudder is the 1st generation. It had inadequate control to override the weathering forces leaving the 250 vulnerable to roundups. The problem was both in the foil section used and the depth.

The 2nd generation had the grip to control the boat but was a beast on the tiller.

Glad you have your helm problems solved.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 09:47:12

I wonder why, after finally putting a balanced rudder on the C-25 in its last few production years, Catalina didn't put one on the C-250?? (I guess that's just a rhetorical question.)

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bear
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Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 11:56:20

That picture looks exactly like my 1st generation rudder. If your S/N is 42 your boat was made in 1995 as mine was. I have had an IDA
rudder for three sailing seasons now on my WB, it really sticks down in the water a long way. It is like power steering. I kept the 1st generation rudder for haul-outs and launch, much easier getting boat into and out of water and shallow waters around ramp area in the fall. It is kept in the aft berth area during sailing season just in case......

Edited by - on

zeil
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Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 13:13:46

The white, shown in center, rudder came with our C250 '95 #151 WB To negotiate the Trent/Severn waterway system a shorter max. 5ft rudder was required. In your opinion is the original a first or second generation??

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 14:31:34

Dave... Actually, we refer to three iterations of Catalina rudders for the 250 and often denote that the 3rd is balanced... but there are actually more than three iterations considering that all three generations have two designs.

The first two had both beaching and blade and the 3rd was blade only but length differences for wing and center board.

The point to explaining this is relative to your rhetorical comment. The first generation beaching rudder was balanced. Why the blade wasn't balanced as well, I don't know.

There were absolutely no problems with the first beaching regarding helm effort, the problem was that the rudder would stall and the boat would round up. So... the interesting question you ask is really why did they design the 2nd generation rudder with such a great amount of grip without balance?

I actually asked Gerry Douglas that question and his answer was a typical non answer... "Well, we've got the 3rd generation in the design phase and it will be balanced."

There is little doubt that Gerry had a gut full of the rudder issues and wanted desperately for the 3rd to put the problems to sleep. When I and Oscar collared him that the 3rd had inadequate control... he went into denial and simply said we were sailing the 250 beyond its design intentions. In Fairness to Gerry, the next statement was, "You tell me what I need to do to make you happy."

Oscar's boat came with a 3rd generation (short for the water ballast) and I had tried the 3rd and finding it inadequate, went back to the 2nd beaching. I wanted assurance that should it fail, it could be replaced. Oscar wanted a 2nd beaching to replace his 3rd blade. Gerry agreed to both request but with no warranty.

Perhaps the most interesting point in the rudder saga, is that in both my discussions with Gerry about the rudder (twice) and Oscar's discussions, Gerry never lets on that there are two variations of the 3rd with the wing keel getting a much longer. Here we both were telling him that the 3rd had inadequate control and he doesn't offer to share that he could replace the 3rd short for the water ballast with the 3rd long.

The reason is easy to sort out... the water ballast got a shorter rudder because the longer wouldn't clear the ground with the boat on the trailer and thus couldn't be launched and retrieved with a shipped rudder. Obviously Gerry was wishing to avoid warranty issues by those forgetting to remove the rudder before hauling out.

We actually stumbled into the reality of the 3rd rudder on this forum. The wing keel guys were tenaciously saying they had no rudder grip problems with the 3rd that we w/b owners were suffering. I commented that the 3rd was considerably shorter than the 2nd and one of the wing guys said, not so... the 3rd is about the same length as the 2nd, it is just balanced. That caused the tape measures to spring to life and in fact the wing gets a rudder considerably longer than the w/b.

I'm getting wordy here but one more point is important. The 3rd generation is a very thick wide foil. These foils whether on a ship or plane, can generate very high amounts of lift but get the most grip when at high alpha angle of attacks compared to a high aspect ratio rudder that gets maximum lift at very low angles of attack.

The problem is that an auto helm doesn't like high alpha foils because if the helm drives the rudder into high alpha to get grip during a moment of brisk wind, when the wind subsides slightly, the rudder is much too far off course and the helm is playing chase the cat with the rudder and producing a drunken sailor course.

When fitting an auto helm, a high aspect ratio rudder produces a far smoother course with far less energy burn by the pilot either manual or auto.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/17/2009 15:18:18

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 14:37:43

Henk... the Catalina rudder in your pic is a 2nd generation, it was not the first rudder that came with your boat.

Catalina provided a new rudder to those who asked for it and who would pay the shipping cost of $45. Evidently the first owner of your boat responded to that offer. Catalina did not ask for the 1st rudder to be returned, only that the owner return the rudder head for fitting to a new rudder.

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 15:01:34

Just for grins... here are the three generations of Catalina rudders. Keep in mind that the first two are beaching... the blade rudders will look different.

The 1st (on left) measures 60" from bottom to top of rudder head.
The 2nd is 76" or 16" longer than the 1st.
The 3rd is 59" or 17" shorter than the 2nd and 1" shorter than the 1st, though it has a much thicker and wider foil than the 1st.

If I'm not mistaken, the 3rd long that is shipped with the wing keel model is about the same length as the 2nd (about 76") so it is roughly seventeen inches longer than the rudder shipped with the water ballast.

If I were to mount the 1st to the rudder head, one could see that about one inch of the leading edge leads the pintle center line. The pivot hole that can't be seen in the pic because the bushing is duct taped to hold it from getting lost, is seven inches from the leading edge but the hole in the rudder head is six inches aft the pintle center line for a net one inch rudder lead and some balance.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/17/2009 15:08:25

AADIVER
Admiral

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Response Posted - 02/19/2009 : 19:53:45

Arlyn, my rudder is the stock original on my 2001. Is it 2nd or 3rd generation and, in your opinion, should I replace it with...?, for best weather helm handling, i.e. the Blain that works so well for Mary?

Edited by - on

Tradewind
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Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 13:20:52

My 2nd gen rudder looks like the rudder on the far right in Arlyn's picture above.

Anyone have any experience with the rudder sold on Ida Sailor?

http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=427

Edited by - Tradewind on 02/20/2009 13:22:19

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 15:48:11

Steve, if your rudder looks like the one at the far right, then it is the 3rd generation rudder all though if you have a wing keel, it will probably be the length of the middle rudder in the pic.

Frank, if I recall correctly your boat is a wing keel and if you have the 3rd generation rudder, it almost certainly is the long version, which has never been criticized for any inadequacy except cracks between the pintles. The 3rd long has very adequate grip and balance.

If I recall correctly, the 3rd was in its final design stage during the late fall of 2000 and 2001 boats were equipped with it.

For those who might be interested in a story.

R&R was ordered late in '95 with delivery in Jan '96 with the original 1st gen rudder. It was acquired to trailer cruise the Great Lakes but spent the next two years waiting for its chance because my brother in law and I had available a C30 to borrow that we'd cruised on before. That was fortunate because the 250 wasn't ready in '96 but with the C30 on the market, effort was being made to get her so.

In '97, the boat was ready other than the helm and fortunately the C30 was still available. Before the '98 season, the C30 sold and a rudder upgrade had been released to solve the helm issues of the 250 so R&R made its first trek to the Great Lakes and did fairly well except it had a ton of helm effort.

R&R made cruises the next two years ('99 & 2000) but it was frustrating that the auto helm could only be used in light air conditions because of the stiffness of the helm so right after returning in 2000, Catalina was called for help to solve the helm issues. It was boat show season and while a reply was waited for, I'd put thought to it and from Hobie Cat experience knew that the helm could be lightened by balancing the rudder by raking the bottom forward. Rudder head mods were performed and tested by the time Gerry called.

It was then that he told me that he'd designed a 3rd rudder that would fix the helm problems. I reported that the problems were believed to have been fixed and the helm was much lighter following the balancing efforts made to the 2nd gen rudder. He asked what I'd done, and offered a 3rd at cost. We talked rudders for about a half hour.

The 2001 cruise season provided two cruises, one with a lady friend who when a breeze was blowing struggled with the helm albeit it was far better than it had been. The auto pilot liked the helm better but remained unhappy at times so to prepare for the next season, the 3rd gen rudder and its promises to solve the helm problems was acquired.

During 2002 cruise, both rudders were aboard to compare. Found quickly was the 3rd generation was indeed light on the helm but had inadequate control for Great Lakes cruising. With it, R&R was back to her old rounding up tricks experienced with the 1st generation rudder and this rudder drove the auto pilot crazy chasing its tail. The 2nd was reshipped and the 3rd was put into moth balls where it remains today.

The last day of that cruise was the clincher, with lady crew and a sixty five mile trek with a twenty five knot quartering wind and 5-6 foot swell, I helmed twelve hours of arm breaking effort without a break as neither crew or auto had the strength.

By 2003, I was married again and committed to a lady crew for at least a portion of future cruising time and had to get the helm righteous. A decision was made to tackle the last hurdle into taming the helm... correcting several design problems of the Edson Small Boat Steering System.

After installing the open wire conversion, the grandkids spent a weekend on the lake with us and in a fairly stiff breeze, our four year old granddaughter was steering the boat effortlessly, a convincing testament the helm had been tamed.

During the following Great Lakes 2003 cruise, the auto pilot was ecstatic with joy (most sailors affectionately think of the auto pilot as a personage with feelings). One leg of the cruise took us across Lake Huron's widest section, a one hundred mile stretch and with a good breeze the auto pilot handled the helm task the entire way without any of its traditional grumbling laboring sounds from the past. Auto had helmed for nineteen hours, we'd run nav lights all night, played the stereo a good bit and run the gps and radio the whole time and had battery power to spare.

We departing Michigan 11 am and arriving Canada 6 am the next morning with my new bride clutching a barf bag almost the whole way. She was fine the rest of the cruise and did quite a bit of helming and had absolutely no problems.

That summer was divided into two cruises with my brother in law again sharing one and he commented... "what on earth did you do to the helm... it is fantastic."

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/21/2009 08:11:26

Tradewind
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Response Posted - 02/20/2009 : 16:28:26

Thanks Arlyn, I thought my PO told me it was a 2nd generation, at the time I bought the boat I knew nothing about the 250 or any rudder problems. This boat has been a learning experience for me, not used to a boat being so tender and sensitive to the helm. My previous boat was a 36' with a wheel. The wife isn't comfortable this boat due to the heeling with each gust of wind but it is the right size for the lake here, with her aboard I usually sail under main alone. I plan to get back to Pensacola and the Gulf Coast within a year or two and will try the 250 there but my wife wants something bigger, may go up to the 320.

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