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Xantrex Comes clean...

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/04/2008 : 15:48:00

After all the hassle I've had trying to "fix my problem with dead batteries", I finally did the obvious and called Xantrex to find out what might be wrong with my charger.

I have a Xantrex TrueCharge 10tb, which is a 10 amp charger for permanent installations. I thought for sure something was wrong with my wiring or the charger when, after everything I could think of there was still a 550 mA load on my batteries with everything turned off.

The Xantrex website said (FAQ section):

"17. Does Truecharge drain the battery when there is no AC power available? (insignificant section referring ot other models removed)

The TC10 one-bank portable model (clip-lead) draws up to 12 milliamps when no ac is present. This is comparable to the self-discharge rate of the battery. If the charger/battery is disconnected from any other charge source or load, the charger will typically drain the battery by 2 Ahr in 1 week. Therefore we recommend disconnecting the charger after a week if there is no ac power available for extended periods. Actually, given that it only has clips, we recommend disconnection as soon as the battery is charged. For permanent connection people should be using the TC10hw or TC10tb."

Well, 12 mA is a lot less than 550 mA. So I got on the horn with Xantrex.

Their rep asked what my problem was. I said the charger was draining the batteries. He asked what my pronblem was...

Apparently this product normally draws 550 mA. It is what it does. If you will be away from your slip, or have a slip without power, disconnect the charger. You cannot put a diode on it or the charger won't get the feedback it needs to control rate of charge. You cannot put a charge controller on it or the charger won't work.

Xantrex does not offer any kind of a work-around to the problem. They have accepted that this unit will drain your batteries if you are not plugged in.

In my situation, I have disconnected the charger, and I am putting alligator clips on the leads. If I am in port and have hydro, I will use it to top up the batteries, otherwise, I am converting entirely to solar.

I have not posted this to slag Xantrex. The product is good, and does what it was made for, but I was misinformed, and thought the charger was fine for my application, when it turns out it is not. Were I to outfit the boat with a charger now, I would not choose this model, especially if I was considering any extended wilderness cruising where I would be out of port for more than 4 days consecutively.

If anyone is considering a charger right now, you should bear this in mind, and check the idle load of the unit you are considering.

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - Prospector on 12/04/2008 15:52:26

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 16:05:27

How about a switch?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 16:32:08

I thought about that Dave, but I will have a toddler and teen aboard who may or may not respect the implications of not having power in the North Channel. I'd rather not have there be any way of it being flipped on accidentally. A light I would notice, the charger quietly sucking juice, I would not.

Besides, the charger has 2 positive leads and one negative lead - all of them go to th ebatteries. which of the positive leads do you switch? What happens if I get the wrong one?

I think using clips is easier for me. I am sure there are more elegant solutions. For now, I plug in, then I connect the charger. Its a new routine when I come to a powered slip. I am thinking about using a zip tie to put a note on the power cord - "Don't Forget the Charger"

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3414 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 16:49:57

Well,
I learned something today ! I did not know there were battery chargers that also drain the batteries when they are hooked up to the DC but not to the AC. I guess if it is primarily designed for portable use, that then is the clue that it may discharge if kept hooked up. That's at least what I gather from your posting.
The thing is that I am still surprised it works that way. I have a Guest Battery Charger 5 + 5 (amps) that has leads for 2 batteries. It was intended for hard wiring. It also wasn't all that expensive but I forget exactly what it did cost. I do not believe it discharges when the AC is not on and it is rarely on...only when I do the rare overnighter to another marina and hook up to shore power.

Edited by - OLarryR on 12/05/2008 21:37:18

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 17:31:35

I wonder if the small trickle charger I bought at Harbor Freight Tools also discharges when the AC goes off, which it sometimes does on our dock when the breakers get overloaded. Right now all we have is household type current with an outdoor outlet every other boat. At least the LED on the trickle charger tells me when we don't have shore juice coming in. Bad part is that this time of the year it might be 2-3 weeks between visits to the boat.
I'm thinking about disconnecting everything and bringing the battery home for the winter, at least until the electricians complete the conversion to the 30 amp service that is going on now. BYW, those transformers are big and heavy and the breaker cabinet for each pier is about 5 ft. tall. It's wild. They're actually causing the dock to dip slightly.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 19:22:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 ...the charger has 2 positive leads and one negative lead - all of them go to the batteries. which of the positive leads do you switch?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There must be a jumper between the two negative terminals on the batteries (or connections to a common ground) so you can have a single negative lead from the charger. A switch on the negative lead will kill the circuit through the charger from either battery. As for the kids, I can only empathize (from experience many years ago).

But IMHO, a wired-in switch has some safety advantages over alligator clips in the battery compartment. For example, if a battery is faulty and therefore generating hydrogen gas, connecting an alligator clip could cause a spark that....

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 20:04:37

In other discussions there were lots of people who liked the price point of the xantrex chargers as opposed to the more expensive Charles chargers. I was always pleased with my Charles but must admit, it was always plugged in unless sailing. I wonder if the Charles really are worth the money.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 20:23:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 ...the charger has 2 positive leads and one negative lead - all of them go to the batteries. which of the positive leads do you switch?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There must be a jumper between the two negative terminals on the batteries (or connections to a common ground) so you can have a single negative lead from the charger. A switch on the negative lead will kill the circuit through the charger from either battery. As for the kids, I can only empathize (from experience many years ago).

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The sparks are an interesting thing - I always thought that a spark when hooking up a battery was an indicator that something was improperly grounded. Withthe leads to the chrger hooked up, I get sparks, otherwise, none.

I just put a common negative bus bar in the battery box, between the oversized fuses that I'm about to replace. I'm now hooking up a solar panel and solar charge controller that will give me a constant readout of battery condition (volts) and current (amps). Hopefully that will give me the power I need to refresh the batteries between outings, and the readouts are a bonus that is cheaper than an LED display.

The solar charge control has one other nice feature... an off switch that actually means off - shut down the whole works - no more power moving into the battery, or out of it.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5322 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 20:41:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> ... solar charge controller that will give me a constant readout of battery condition (volts) and current (amps) <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What brand of solar regulator do you have?

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 20:59:16

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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1349 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 21:35:31

I have had a TC10TB now for four years and have never notice a battery drain. It has sat at the end of the dock without AC power for months at a time and still had plenty of juice to start the engine. I do have my charge wired through a 1,2,both switch and it is turned off when leaving the boat, so it could have the drain and me not know it because it feeds through the switch. I do know it does not mention this in the owners manual.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 21:37:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 The sparks are an interesting thing - I always thought that a spark when hooking up a battery was an indicator that something was improperly grounded...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I just consider the possibility of a spark whenever connecting or disconnecting something from a battery. That's why the prescribed method for attaching jumper cables between cars includes making the last connection (negative) to a frame member and not to the battery--to keep the almost certain spark away from the battery.

But in general, alligator clips under the seat versus a switch (maybe keyed, as Oscar shows, or with a switch-guard)... that seems like a no-brainer to me. (Where is the charger located?)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/04/2008 21:38:51

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 21:42:35

If its the DC current aren't you supposed to switch the negative? (I always get that confused) It would alleviate which positive to switch.

Have you considered a GUEST brand? they are middle of the road on price point and have a good product.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 21:43:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by frog0911
 I have had a TC10TB now for four years and have never notice a battery drain. It has sat at the end of the dock without AC power for months at a time and still had plenty of juice to start the engine. I do have my charge wired through a 1,2,both switch and it is turned off when leaving the boat, so it could have the drain and me not know it because it feeds through the switch. I do know it does not mention this in the owners manual.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You could be right - ours was wired with one terminal through the 1-2-both switch, and the other directly to the other battery. I hope your arrangement is working well, and continues to work well for you.

If you have easy access to the boat, could you try turning your 1-2-both switch to Both, but leave the "house panel" (next to the sink) turned off, and check to see if you find a 500 - 600 mA draw on the Negative battery lead? I am assuming that under this arrangement, the only thing drawing on your batteries would be the idle load from the charger.

It makes sense that the way yours is wired would prevent the constant drain that I am experiencing; however, I would prefer to avoid having multiple wires going to the switch. I have just done a bunch of work to minimize th enumber of locations where more than one lead is sharing a terminal.

I wonder if my charger has some kind of drain on it that it shouldn't, and why Xantrex wouldn't mention any draw on the idle charger on its website.

Envisioning your system, you must also have a common ground or a jumper between the batteries. I had a jumper wire, but just moved all the negatives that were in the battery box to a bus bar to make things simpler.

Edited by - Prospector on 12/04/2008 21:55:55

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 21:46:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
But in general, alligator clips under the seat versus a switch (maybe keyed, as Oscar shows, or with a switch-guard)... that seems like a no-brainer to me. (Where is the charger located?)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The charger is in the aft lazarette right next to the AC panel.

One thought is to put a terminal barrier strip in there, and just jump to it with a couple "U" shaped connectors.

Edited by - Prospector on 12/04/2008 21:47:01

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 22:03:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 What brand of solar regulator do you have?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I picked up this unit at "Canadian Tire." It is rated for "Outdoors" but not "Marine" Since I am on a freshwater lake, and it is housed inside the cabin, I am not too worried.

[url="http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524443290319&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474396673605&bmUID=1228449497052&deptid=1408474396672395&ctgrid=1408474396672406&subctgrid=1408474396673605"]Solar Charge Controller[/url]

Although they are a Canadian store, I believe they will export.

FWIW, I only have it hooked up to a 15 W solar panel, but I think it is worth the extra cost for this big of a controller if I get the Volts and Amps display.

EDIT:Apparently they only ship to Canada. If you need one, let me know via email, and I will try to work something out to get one to you. I would suggest that if you think this is the answer to your dreams, you wait until it has survived a month or two of actual use - then I can give you feedback on whether I am still impressed by it.

Edited by - Prospector on 12/05/2008 10:46:24

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 22:10:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 If its the DC current aren't you supposed to switch the negative? (I always get that confused) It would alleviate which positive to switch.

Have you considered a GUEST brand? they are middle of the road on price point and have a good product.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think in DC you are always supposed to switch the positive (In researching this I am finding answers to questions I had earlier... Apparently wiring the charger directly to the 1-2-Both switch is the common way to do this)

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 22:10:14

How many mA will the volt regulator or SP controller draw with your new solar panel system?

paulj

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 22:15:32

I checked that before buying Paul, and with installation I rechecked to be sure there was no error on the packaging.

The meter read 0.00 when I touched the leads to it, so that's a good sign, but after all this I don't really trust anything, so I am putting the batteries on the charger for a day or two, and then will recheck with everything installed on the boat. I think the draw on the charge controller was listed at somethign like 1.2 mA. I will recheck if you are interested.

EDIT TO ADD - Having the charge controller in place is kindof a silly add-on. Our solar panel has a built-in Diode to prevent drain at night, so now I have the charge controller AND the diode preventing backflow to the batteries. For me the million dollar question is - what would happen if I tried running the Xantrex charger through the solar controller?

I think the solar controller could handle the load (10A charger, 30A controller), but th echarger would either a)never get the feedback from the battery that the charge was complete, or b) recieve feedback from the controller that it was overcharging and the internal algorithms in the Xantrex charger would be thrown off would be thrown off.

Someday when I feel adventurous, and like throwing away money, I'll have to hook them up to each other and see what happens.

Edited by - Prospector on 12/04/2008 22:21:09

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/04/2008 : 23:00:59

We had a Xantex that failed on us the first year. Replaced it with a Charles and couldn't be happier. The Charles is always connected to the battery bank and goes months without being connected to shore power. No drain at all.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 12/05/2008 : 12:09:28

No drain - same as my Guest

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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Response Posted - 12/05/2008 : 21:43:55

I had a guest controller. The biggest issue was having to make sure everything DC was turned of before turning the charger on! Failure caused either the charger or the batteries to go bye-bye!

Paul

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/05/2008 : 22:58:43

Prospector --
I checked on Canadian Tire's website, and yes, you have to be Canadian to enter the site. You need to enter your postal code to get in. So I faked it with a Burlington code L7L 5Z9.

I worked for two Toronto-area companies and spent a fair amount of time in Mississauga and Milton.

I looked at the Sunforce 30W Solar Panel. This is what I purchased last spring. I got two 15 Watters and put them together with the 7A charge controller. Works fine and keeps the battery topped up.

I could use the 80 watter. This uses a different, more efficient technology solar panel and in a similar size package generates 5X the power.

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2008 : 10:18:57

Wow, a battery charger that de-charges.
If only we can eat fast food that removes fat, rather than adding it. Then we would be making progress.

Nice thread. I'll take note of the Charles solution.

Deric

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/06/2008 : 16:59:00

I don't know about fast food that removes fat but they make inflators that also deflate. Maybe give that a try !

Edited by - on

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