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The other half of the equation...

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/05/2008 : 11:41:23

I love a day out on the boat. For me leaving the marina,feeling the wind in the sails and the swell of the water beneath the boat is about the best way to de-stress and leave the world behind. When we bought our boat last fall, I was hoping that the whole family would get the same happiness from it that I do.

I am dismayed to say that one person in the family doesn't. Of course that one person is the one who keeps the balance with the rest of us - my wife.

Sadly she is downright afraid of the boat. As soon as it begins to heel, or the waves kick up, or something falls off a shelf down below, she grabs for a lifeline, her face goes shock white, and she begs to get off the boat. It is complete irrational fear. Even if I tell her the boat was designed to sail with a lean, or that we cannot even bury the bow of th eboat, or that stuff falling inside the boat won't hurt anything she is convinced that the boat will capsize, sink, or is falling apart.

Since I can't get her past her feelings, and she feels like the kids lives are in danger each time I take them out, she has grown increasingly resentful of the boat and any time spent on it.

Do any of you have suggestions for ways to put a person at ease? Maybe a self-help book to get her to overcome her fears? Anyone know a buyer for a helluva nice boat - thats where this is headed if we can't get past this, and thats a real shame.

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 11:50:43

I sail thousands of miles per year single handed. My wife hates sailing. She'll get on the boat a few times per year but the thought of a offshore voyage or a 40 mile race would affect her much as your wife. She knows rationally the boat is not going over and will not sink.

But she loves fencing and we are OK with seperate activities. I usually sail on Sundays and we spend Saturday together. I also sail almost every day after work.

Being out on the water is not for everyone. My whole family know this is something I can not live without.

Sorry, I wish I had better news.

That said, my wife did not fear powerboats at all. We took a year long, 5000 mile voyage in one.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 12:11:10

Chris, my heart sinks when ever this subject comes up. I have to admit that some people just don't get the feel that we obviously do.

My first wife (in the UK) spent maybe 5 minutes on my small day sailer. Once we rented a rowing dinghy on lake windermere, we barely pulled away from the dock before pleas to return and white knuckles gripped the thwart.

Admiral Peggy gets tense if we leave the sails up when gray skies are visible on the horizon, and I've said many times how heeling is limited to 15d max.

When we went to Bimini, Peggy spent probably 8 hours below decks keeping a trash can close company and vowed we would never make that trip again.

But for some thankful reason, she not only endures our trips but actually enjoys them (as long as I stay within her limits), even another trip to bimini is back on the table!

I really don't know what it is that gets to us to make this such a great experience and why others just don't get it.

FYI, I spent 25 years in the Royal Navy and got sea sick on even the biggest ships, yet still love sailing!

The Admiral is a bit of a control freak, so perhaps taking control of JD is more powerful than the fear of disaster.

There's just something about a piece of line pulling a boat through the water with natures power that is, to so many of us, a delight.

I'm sure you have done baby steps to try and raise your wifes comfort level.

Perhaps showing her some of the exploits of women sailors might help???

Paul

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 12:33:14

Chris,
We started off in a similar way 3 years ago. In terms of my own experience, I believe you may have the answer in your opening post:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> ... she feels like the kids lives are in danger each time I take them out... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What I/we learned was that my wife was most skittish with others on board. Our kids, their friends, our friends, her extended family...it didn't matter...when we'd start to heel, she'd start to freak. UNTIL, we started going out alone - as in just the two of us -throughout last year, in baby steps, we'd go out as a twosome and by the end of the season, she was much more comfortable.

She's actually progressed to the point where this year, in 20 kts steady, we crossed a large wake (really rude stink potter) while she was down below getting lunch together, as we pitched up and down rather excessively, she yelled up to me '...should I be worried?...'

I still go out solo 50% of the time, but this is my long way to say that things might still be worked out.

jl

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 12:34:25

Is she afraid of water? ... death? Those are therapist issues. How big of a boat has she been on? Maybe you should hitch a ride on a 30+ and see if she does better.
Otherwise:
Red Cross sailing lessons, those students are almost always complete novices.
get a catamaran, we don't lean, we scream.
hypnosis
new wife

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 12:37:25

Chris,
I can relate, my wife is also afraid of -what seem to me- irrational things on the boat as well. She fears that she'll fall out of the boat when it heels, she fears falling in the water since she doesn't swim well, she fears that she won't know what to do if I'm hurt or go overboard, and she fears that the boat will capsize. She knows that the boat is extremely unlikely to capsize, but that doesn't change the fear.

To help alleviate some of her fears, I've taken some steps to address her them. I've gotten us the best auto-inflating PFDs we can afford, we both always wear them, both have dual safety lanyards, as well as two lights & whistles each. Same with foul weather gear. I go out of my way to teach her how to run the boat by herself, specifically so she knows what to do if I'm incapacitated somehow. I installed a new VHF with DSC capability, as well as a GPS, and autopilot. I've taught her how to run the VHF, as well as how the DSC operates, same with the GPS, we still haven't had a chance to even plug the autopilot in, so that's a learning experience for us, hopefully tomorrow. I have a WHAM microphone for the fixed VHF as well as a separate handheld. I've put together a ditch kit, and gotten an Avon dinghy so if we have to abandon ship for some reason, we've got somewhere to go. I've also installed a new engine that's more reliable than our previous one, plus it has electric start so she doesn't have to worry about pull starting it.

She isn't an enthusiastic sailor, but she really enjoys the boat when things go well and is willing to learn. I include her in as many decisions regarding our trips, especially go/no go decisions as I can. We spent a lot of time getting our reefing figured out, as well as buying a storm jib so we can shorten sail early & keep the boat flat. I had her help me rig the reefing lines so she understands how it works. We both believe that she'll grow to enjoy sailing the more she learns. I think the key is that she's willing to learn. Fears are lessened or removed through knowledge & experience.

What I'd recommend is a sailing course for your wife from a sailing center. Knowing what everything is, what it does and how the physics work to keep the boat upright will go a long way towards alleviating her fears.

Good luck.

Edited by - delliottg on 09/05/2008 12:38:34

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 13:11:03

Well I have the exact same issues with my wife as well. What has made it better though is that she gets a little better each time we go out. Not that she is fully accepting now, but I do try to calm her when we do heel and make sure she knows that we are in control of the boat. Lake sailing is much better than blue water or the Great Lakes from the get go, so I am making good progress.

One thing that she has mentioned though is that she feels she would be much more comfortable in a bigger and thus more stable sailboat. For that reason, I am looking at a bigger one. Her sister and brother inlaw have a 38' Island Packet that they have sailed in the Caribbean for over 18 months on one of their trips. We joined them in St. Martin and spent a week on the bigger boat. Even though she dreaded going at first, it was all she talked about after we get back.

I think it all boils down to a sense of adventure and getting pleasure from it. We took a vacation out to wine country this Spring and I convinced her to go on a hot air balloon flight with a champagne breakfast afterward. Again, she did not want to go, but afterwards, she could not believe how much fun she had. Just little steps can really make a big difference.

Now I am looking for a larger boat, so she will feel more comfortable.. Oh yeah, and I will too..

Edited by - cat1951 on 09/05/2008 13:13:21

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 14:18:44

Well, my wife doesn't have the fear thing but it seems as though a starter pistol goes off every time the boat returns to the marina. The race is on to see who can get to the car first. I'd like to just laze around, slowly securing the boat. Maybe visit with the neighbors. Do a little maintenance. Whatever. My wife and kids run for the car. Obviously, this is my idea of fun and she/they simply tolerate it. It's come to the point that I've seriously considered selling the boat and taking up knitting (alright, maybe not knitting). I've decided to give it one more season and see how it goes.

As far the fear thing. I'd suggest getting her to ride on a larger boat that has a captain sensitive to her fears. The last thing you need is somebody that will take you and her out and put the rails in the water. Alternatively, I don't know the lake size you're on but maybe moving to a smaller lake might allay some anxiety?

In any event, I feel your pain. I really wanted this to be a time for my family to be together and share something that will build memories. Instead, it seems to be keeping us further apart.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 14:44:59

I knew we were over the hump when my late wife began to complain about not heeling. To her, heeling was sailing, and she preferred that the boat was sailing, as opposed to flopping around or running the engine.

How we got there, I think, was rather simple. She learned to understand the basic controls--tiller and mainsheet--starting on a Sunfish, working up to a 17' sloop-rigged Daysailer, and then the C-25. The first two could actually capsize (and even turtle), so the relationships between tiller, sheet, and ballast became apparent and very important. Experiencing what each of those does to cause or reduce heel is the key--including knowing that if you let go of the tiller or the sheet, the boat pops up. But she has to actually do those things.

By the time we got to the C-25, my wife was amazed by the concept of not being able to capsize (even though we never actually did in the Daysailer). She was no adventurer, and basically a fair-weather sailor, but burying the rail didn't phase her. She knew how to "fix" that, and also understood that we virtually couldn't go over any further.

I firmly believe in learning sailing on a dinghy (Optimist, Sunfish, Bluejay,... you name it)--hands on the controls--where the fundamental relationships of wind, sail, rudder, and ballast become absolutely obvious, and reactions to changes in any of those things are instantaneous. There you learn the differences between upwind and downwind sailing, the strategies for getting from here to there, and what makes the boat go or not go--without the complications of winches, sail handling, dock maneuvers, radios, etc. Until there is a gut feeling for the basic principles of sailing, heeling will always be "tipping", and tipping will always feel like the precursor to tipping over.

I also suggest she take some lessons from somebody other than you, and without you. There is a unique kind of pressure when a spouse is involved, and sometimes a lack of (ahem) patience.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 14:47:38

Book title: Its Your Boat Too. Chris wasn't afraid, but sailing was just OK for her until we hit Lake Erie and Pensacola bay - a little time on the tiller got her much more involved. She was afraid of being out of sight of land at first, but she has grown to live with it on longer cruises.
Now she talks about a non trailerable of 30' or so and wants to take a one week sailing course.

On the downside, my former sailing companion, who passed away some years ago, was married to a woman who hated being on their boat. For fifty years she would go to Lake Erie with him, she would sail if the boat did not heel, if their was nobody else to go with him, and if they would come in at the first sign of a whitecap. She did that because she loved him and knew how much he loved sailing. Their daughter, married to a friend of mine (which is how I met him), loves to tell about the three of them sailing when her mother complained that if the boat had to heel so much, they could go back in. So they went back to the marina, dropped her off, and went back out. Some people are not water people, you might explore her fears, get her to take lessons, see a therapist, or see it through your children's eyes. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee. Irrational fears are sometimes to much for a person to confront. I wish you luck

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 15:45:46

Chris, My Mary is not crazy about sailing as well and doesn't like heeling but doesn't turn white either. Yes, you could get a larger boat but she may still not overcome her fear.
Being a therapist-past life- let me say she needs behavior mod. Start out motoring, no sails. Let her get comfortable. Maybe even have a party on the boat without taking it out- with friends. Bring food, wine, etc. Get her relaxed.
After this take boat out again motoring and anchor somewhere where boat fairly secure, not much rocking. Again no sailing. Get her to walk around boat, make lunch, etc. Maybe talk about things about the boat, tiller, rigging, etc and how they work.
Finally take her out sailing is a light breeze and set up sails so heeling at very minimum if none at all. Again have her be active if you can. Also maybe rent movies about sailing-and I don't mean Jaws!
Do you have friends who sail who have wives who are ok with it? Invite them along. Bottom line, take baby steps. Work up to it. All the safety gear means nothing. Also maybe a hypnotherapist can help.
I have used this on quite a few patients and it worked for different fears.
Maybe this is all too late,not sure but she needs reassurance. Classes would be good as Dave B mentioned as well. Unless you want to sail alone or w/o her, immediate action needed.
Keep us posted and good luck.
Steve A

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 15:51:46

Chris,

Your opening post describes my situation to a tee. My wife knows the boat isn't going to sink, but she still suffers from uncontrollable panic/anxiety attacks if we heel over 5 degrees so when she goes out those few times each season, we are generally just rafting. She also has a real healthy fear of spiders, but I think she would much rather get into a box full of spiders than heel to 10 degrees.

For this reason, I'm mainly a singlehanded sailor and both my wife and I are at peace with this. Actually, it's worked out better for us since I like to sail from sun up to sun down and she, and most others I know including my kids, only have a tolerance and the patience for a few hours on the water. On those rare days when my wife and kids do come down to the boat, I usually sail by myself from 7-8am til noon, come back to the marina to pick up the crew for a few hours of sailing, then drop them off so they can go home and I head back out until dark or whenever.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 16:01:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Chris,

My wife knows the boat isn't going to sink...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'm not sure about that one...

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 16:36:11

Clearly a common and very complex phenomenon... My wife has proven her courage many times in various situations but when it comes to sailing she has one rule: "scare me and I'll never step foot on this boat again"...said with a smile but none-the-less the msg is clear. To get past this, we have over the years conducted "experiments" to demonstrate how the boat handles under various conditions and with her at the helm. To my amusement, she has little to no tolerance for heeling but is always the first to push to race any boat that happens to be on the same course. That said we have come a long way over the past few years and as her confidence in the boat, in my handling of it, and in her own handling of it has grown, so has her interest. Not that we can heel yet, but she now knows that we can have a great day of sailing even in 15-20kt winds if we reef and/or sail under the 135 alone. I still want my solo time, but we've come a long way.

Not a suggestion, but if it becomes necessary to keep peace and still enjoy the benefits of being on the water there are alternative approaches...You could consider becoming a multiple-boat family; something motorized and safe for the whole family and a smaller/wilder sailing craft for you. Just a thought....best to you.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 17:15:27

My Admiral had never been in a boat before we bought Labarca. She was fearful and I believe what brought her around was getting involved with several boating clubs and took lessons via Power and Sail Squadron. I think it was the other people, especially other women who were involved in boating that helped her and subsequently, us.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 18:22:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">but I think she would much rather get into a box full of spiders than heel to 10 degrees.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I thought a sailboat was a box full of spiders that heeled

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 18:56:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">but I think she would much rather get into a box full of spiders than heel to 10 degrees.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I thought a sailboat was a box full of spiders that heeled
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Mine is

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 18:56:45

Loads of interesting responses, and I appreciate them all.

Here is the interesting part. We DID take lessons together last summer - CYA Basic Keelboat. She was comfortable the whole time, and seemed to get her money's worth out of the course (Which was on a Northern 25 - the same size as ours). Last summer we also sailed with another couple, and she was OK on that boat as well (A catalina 27, not a lot different in size than ours).

Dave, I know your comment was in jest, but it may be the heart of the problem; either that or I may have an inferiority complex. I think it may be that she doesn't trust the capabilities of herself and I to get past whatever problems we may encounter. I think (from her perspective) the solution to this is more training. I also think that she won't take classes without me being there, and even if she did, I don't think it would help her once we were out of the classroom.

Steve A, I really appreciate your ideas. I am going to ask her to meet me at the marina after the races this Saturday to go out and raft up with another couple who are friends of ours. Maybe watching the sunset with them will put her at ease, and then we can motor back.

EDIT TO ADD:
I just phoned her at home (yes, I'm still at the office,) and she agreed to go out with me tomorrow night. Turns out we've both been thinking of this today and trying to put a finger on it. I'll let you guys know how this goes on Monday. (Somehow this sounds like a couple teenagers talking about going on a date...)

Edited by - Prospector on 09/05/2008 19:23:45

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 19:08:32

"I am going to ask her to meet me at the marina after the races this Saturday to go out and raft up with another couple who are friends of ours. Maybe watching the sunset with them will put her at ease, and then we can motor back."

Bingo!

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2008 : 13:15:06

GREAT NEWS!! We stumbled across something that works!

Iris will be sailing next spring - and the Admiral will be aboard!

On our way to pull the boat, I decided to try sailing with the the 60% storm jib we bought off a member of the forum, and then stuffed away for the day when we would need it. According to environment Canada, winds were expected at about 10 kts on Sunday, but we flew the storm jib anyway. The results were great. Iris stayed on her feet, the admiral was happy, and we were still making about 5 knots for most of the sail.

In fact herself enjoyed the sail so much, she said we could get a slip for next year and she would even come out to play if I just sailed with the storm jib whenever she is aboard.

Now we may look funny, and our performance will surely suffer, but I get to keep the boat in the water, so who cares!

Right now Iris is pulled for the season and sits in the back yard awaiting her fall spa treatment. Let the varnish/oil/Cetol debate begin...

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2008 : 14:16:41

I found I could sail with the main reefed and it was like having a different boat. It sails with little heel. I never thought that would have such a calming effect, but it was great for anyone that is not accustomed to a sailboat.

My admiral is dipping the rail, but I was really unaware at how much it was unnerving her, rather that making her feel good about the experience.

Great News!!

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2008 : 16:22:41

Chris, that is fantastic news. Glad you guys were able to find a fix. Guess that storm jib worth its weight in gold!

I am still working on mine! Maybe reefing idea might work for us as I don't have storm jib.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 09/30/2008 16:23:38

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2008 : 16:26:31

CONGRATS!

"Now we may look funny, and our performance will surely suffer, but I get to keep the boat in the water, so who cares!"

At this point let performance be the least of your worries, she's out there and enjoying it. And if you're lucky, she'll see your friends pass you and ask where that bigger sail is...

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2008 : 21:57:16

Congratulations, Chris! Good work adapting your sailing to your wife's preferences.

I have used my storm jib with the main reefed in 20 knots up, since neither the boat nor I are comfortable heeling past 45 deg. It's a big difference in sail area, and the boat settles right down.

My wife doesn't enjoy sailing at all, but we share other activities.
Good luck with your sailing adventures next Spring.

Hey, if you happen to get down to DC for some reason, give me a ring and you can come along for a Fall or Winter sail out on the Bay!

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2008 : 22:01:27

Great news. Performance is a good trade for a happy admiral. It still sounds like a beginner's sailing class would help. It would build her confidence in sailing the boat herself and would be invaluable if something happened to you while she was onboard.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2008 : 22:20:36

I was out on the cruise during most of this this thread. Geez, I feel lucky. Pat likes to sail, has no problem heeling, and enjoys cruising. She would just as soon lie back against the bulkhead and read or do puzzles rather than take the helm but that is fine with me. I would not enjoy sailing nearly as much by myself. I'm going to give her a big hug when she gets home.

I don't know if this is at all involved but Pat has always been an athlete and enjoys outdoor activities. Maybe that helps. Also we have both learned on our C22 and now the 250 that these boats just do not get knocked over, they heel and then turn to weather and flatten out. I also have no problem reefing early and often.

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