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Tossing Tow Rope Liability

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Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/28/2008 : 18:14:18

Hello Folks,

This Sunday past, I found a jetski stalled with its rider in the water; he was trying to remove weeds from the jetski. He also got himself stuck in the weeds and was unable to get the jetski started, nor get himself out of the water onto the jetski.

I tossed him a tow rope and towed him into the marine. A buddy sailor mentioned that there is a difference in the liability depending on who throws the tow rope.

Never heard of such a stipulation, but I am no lawyer.

Does anyone know about this?

Thanks,
Deric

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2008 : 18:49:22

I understand that the law of the sea dictates that you help a sailor and his vessel in distress.
There are also Good Samaritan laws.
But, never under-estimate the laws of the nature of the human beast.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2008 : 08:21:56

Hmmmm... I know that there are laws protecting good sams who are Red Cross CPR et al trained who may actually inadvertently cause damage while trying to do good. I also know that technically, when the "boater" accepted your line for a tow, that his vessel is considered your salvage.

Towing companies are exempt from this rule unless you are informed first. BUT, as a sailor - should you accept the assistance of others - always pass over your own line! Not everyone is out to screw you - but rules are rules!

A singlehanding woman once fell overboard her vessel in the Islands I believe. Anyhow, she was rescued by some fisherman 15 minutes later. She could still see her boat sailing away and got them to chase it. As they approached, the fisherman tried to tie up to it, and she pushed them out of the way and altered course while she retrieved 50 bucks or something. The reason? if they had tied up to her they could have called it a salvage.

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Swansea, MA

Edited by - on

dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2008 : 20:29:00

life in our country.
got to have a discussion over should you lend a helping hand or.

it seems we are disconnected from reality.

dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
sailing a hot carlyle lake in southern illinois

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2008 : 21:46:38

Isn't there a martime law that states that you must assist?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2008 : 23:08:06

From the INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION FOR THE SAFETY OF LIFE AT SEA, 1974:<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The master of a ship at sea, on receiving a signal from any source that a ship or aircraft or survival craft thereof is in distress, is bound to proceed with all speed to the assistance of the persons in distress informing them if possible that he is doing so...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think you're legal duty is to save lives, not necessarily property (including boats).

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2008 : 12:14:16

Quote: "I think you're legal duty is to save lives, not necessarily property (including boats)."

Which is sorta the origin of the salvage laws. The possibility of additional wealth in the form of ship and/or cargo was the original intent of the salvage laws - hence the original question. This was required because not all who ply the sea feel bound to duty and honor. I believe SCNewbie had a derelict try to enlist others to assist him such that the neerthewell could "salvage" the vessel. But the original intent was to save ships and save lives by providing an incentive to assist...

sten

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2008 : 14:10:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dave holtgrave
 life in our country.
got to have a discussion over should you lend a helping hand or.

it seems we are disconnected from reality.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think Dave's got it right. Have we really evolved as a species to the point where we have these kinds of discussions. If I ever sail away from someone in need, I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror in the morning. I'd miss that.

If I'm ever sued into homelessness for doing the right thing, so be it.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2008 : 14:57:58

Makes me think of a personal story of mine. When I was 19 I was water skiing with my sister (16 then) who was towing me behind our small powerboat. My sister didn't notice when I fell and just kept on going until I couldn't see her anymore. I was stranded there for about 5 minutes about 1/2 mile from shore when I started getting concerned she would never come back and couldn't find me. Being 19 and a know it all like many others at that age, I had no PDF with the reasoning that they were too big and got in the way of good a good slalom. A pontoon boat passed about 100 feet away from me slowly with about 5-6 occupants all looking at me. I was waving my ski and calling out for help and they just kept on going merrily along at about 3 knots. Never picked me up. I was afraid some speedboat would clip me. So I started swimming slowly conserving as much energy as I could towards the shore when suddenly my sister shows up around the bend and saw me. Wasn't as mad at my sister as I was at that pontoon.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 07/30/2008 14:59:27

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2008 : 14:58:07

I Googled "[url="http://www.google.com/search?q=salvage+laws&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a"]Salvage laws[/url]", there are a bunch of good stories to read.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2008 : 15:07:26

I can only imagine that a bunch of cheap ass A-Holes just lurk out there and try to devise ways to get a cheap boat. After reading some of David's links I read that a derelict ship is defined as "abandoned and deserted by those in charge of it, without hope of recovering it, and no intention of returning to it.". So if your boat would come loose at it's mooring and some "smart guy" would think they just got a new boat for free then he would be absolutely wrong because you never intended on abandoning it. It's just that I can see the argument at the docks about this and the same "smart guy" trying to forbid you from accessing your boat with another ill informed person reinforcing that "it's a salvage, sorry you lost it.". I'm quite sure there must be some stories where such a "smart guy" cut the boat loose on purpose with the intent of "salvaging" it later.

Fortunately the courts have better sense than that. But the ordeal will cost you with all sorts of legal fees even though the law is clearly defined.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 07/30/2008 15:10:40

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2008 : 15:35:11

I thought I read somewhere that salvage was merely the agreement between two parties to keep a vessel from incurring additional loss or to reverse existing loss. In the event there is not an agreement, maritime law would determine the amount that would have to be paid for saving vessel/cargo but it does not give anyone who finds a boat adrift the right to claim it as theirs, just to claim salvage rights. Joe finds your boat adrift and tows it back to the marina. You owe him for towing. He says that’ll be $10,000, you tell him to get a court order to enforce his claim, but the boat is still yours. I am not an attorney. Any advice given here is the advice of a layman and so on and so on etc.

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2008 : 16:28:13

There is no doubt that our country, USA, is the most litigious compared to other countries. My ethics drive my actions to help those in need. I find it extremely interesting that there could be differences in consequences based upon who is throwing a tow or rescue rope.

It would be convenient if we had a lawyer of Maritime laws who was a sailor and a member of this site.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2008 : 16:28:56

Ed has it right as far as I know. The term "salvage" means that you were assisted "by any means necessary" and the "salvor" has a right to compensation which can reach some bucks depending on the degree of salvage. Think about it. This is the other half of SeaTow and Tow Boats and other independent operators business, pulling boats off rocks and what not. I once was hanging out in a well known sailors bar in Newport when I hear a distinguished sailor exclaim, " I know, let's just follow the fleet and claim a bunch of fancy yachts after they abandon ship!" Truth be told, he was talking about a Bermuda rally that had a lot of inexperienced crews... So his logic was that at some point some failure would render someone less than capable - in their own mind - and they'd pull the EPIRB pin and abandon ship. Technically, most boats continue to float long after their crews abandoned them. SO, following the fleet and salving an abandoned boat would be 100% of value, but pulling the jet ski out might be 20 bucks.

sten

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2008 : 20:53:35

Since when does doing the right thing, honor, honesty, or helping out someone in distress have anything at all to do with the lawyer industry? 180 degrees apart I think.

Being a medical professional I'm a big target for lawyers, kinda like lunch meat for sharks in a frenzy.

I shouldn't be so hard on lawyers, after all, it's only 99 percent of the lawyers which make all the others look bad.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2008 : 21:06:15

You know that if a ship goes down, the sharks won't eat the lawyers... Professional courtesy.

Edited by - on

dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2008 : 22:07:49

hey dave b.
you hit the nail right on the head

dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
sailing a very hot carlyle lake in southern illinois

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2008 : 15:29:40

Be careful not to injure anyone when you toss the tow line!

Paul

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2008 : 18:12:54

Good one Paul, you actually made me laugh out loud. Thanks, I needed that.

The difference between a lawyer and a catfish is that one is a scum sucking bottom feeder. The other one is a fish.

Did you know that if it wasn't for lawyers we wouldn't need any lawyers?

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2008 : 19:19:42

Yeah,

Okay, so if you help a sailor who is also a lawyer, what do you do?

Throw the tow line with an anchor attached and aim for his/her head?

After all, the choices the lawyer may executer are to sue you for a faulty rescue or tow,

or

sue for negligence: for not helping.

Either way, one is screwed,,,hmmm, is that a lawyer term?

Deric

Edited by - on

crystal_blue
1st Mate

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USA
64 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2008 : 19:50:33

I just graduated from law school (sat for the Utah Bar Examination yesterday, actually). My school didn't have any admiralty law courses, but from what I understand most of admiralty law arose at a time when salvage (as opposed to lifesaving) was extremely risky for the would-be salvor. I understand there are some pretty intelligent legal scholars advocating the abandonment--or at least the updating--of traditional salvage law. It wouldn't hurt to contact your congressman if you feel strongly on the matter.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Either way, one is screwed,,,hmmm, is that a lawyer term?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Most of the lawyers I've met use language just as salty as any sailor when they're not with a client or in the courtroom. The "lawyer term" for the predicament you describe is probably unprintable in this forum.

--Jim

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2008 : 22:01:06

Sure hope our friend Steve has a thick skin out there on the Chesapeake.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2008 : 12:21:55

The primary criterion I've read that distinguishes salvage from mere assistance is whether the act puts the operator's life or property at some significant risk--e.g., being close to rocks, in rough shallows, or possibly being capsized by a sinking boat. Thus, towing a boat with a dead engine, or pulling a boat out of a soft grounding, generally doesn't qualify. Dragging one off an ocean beach does.

(I suspect Milby has more lawyer jokes than the rest of us put together.

)

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2008 : 13:00:53

Dave,

I dragged the jetski (dead engine) into the marina with the owner hanging onto the back of the jetski.

Where does that place me regarding liability?

I had no idea this was a complex topic. Sheesh.

Can we get a moral lawyer in here?

Deric

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2008 : 13:26:10

In the end, no good deed goes unpunished.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2008 : 15:31:10

I seem to remember that salvage rules only apply on the high seas not inside some limit like 3 miles.

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