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Upwind Against the Current

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Phredde
Navigator

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125 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/09/2008 : 16:00:10

After 10 years of fun with Phredde, I'll admit I am still learning how to really sail her well. Do you all have any advice for beating to windward against a current?

Last weekend was a good example. lots of good sailing of all types around the bay. The most challenging was on the way back to gas house cove from the east bay. Wind was about 10-15 kts from the West, the direction we were heading. Current was about 3.5 kts also from the west and going against us. Seas were only 2-3 feet on average. We did our best to flatten sail and point upwind, but many of our tacks made little or no overall progress. One even had us losing ground, that was embarrassing.

We even tried finding the current shadows or areas where it wasn't as strong without much luck. Other boats in the bay that day were also struggling but made better progress than we did. I tried emulating the sail plan of those that were doing better, but that did not help either.

In hindsight, I think maybe putting in a reef might have helped. I am also thinking I need some tell-tails and to learn how to use them. And a good bottom scrubbing is probably over-due too.

Good ideas? Any other advice from the group?

Phredde
Catalina 25
San Francisco

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2008 : 18:57:52

Hi Phredde,

One of the most common problems with trying to get upwind is to point so high you lose speed. What happens is you end up with your bow pointing high, but you make more leeway, so in the end you lose. The way to get around this is to slack off your vang a little bit so the clew of your boom lifts up a few inches. Also trim your mail and jib out just a little bit. You'll point a little bit lower, but you'll pick up speed. The speed will increase the lift from your keel and you'll end up with much less leeway. Also remember if you're watching other boats they may not have the same characteristics as your boat. It's good to see what other people do, but pay most attention to your own boat, especially to your speed, when you're slowing down, you're losing ground.

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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2008 : 18:59:20

Sorry, that sounded confusing because I didn't edit. I meant "... trim your main and jib out..."

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2008 : 19:33:21

Building on Stardog's good advice... If you have a GPS, set a waypoint for your upwind destination, and then watch your VMG (Velocity Made Good) as you try different courses and trims. VMG is your progress toward the waypoint, independent of your course In your case VMG varying from low-positive to slight negative. A slightly lower course producing higher speed and less leeway might increase your VMG, and the GPS can show that to you.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2008 : 21:01:24

"many of our tacks made little or no overall progress. One even had us losing ground, that was embarrassing"

No reason to be embarrased though... beating against a stiff current sometimes can be a losing proposition no matter what you do. I've lost ground on many tacks. Sometimes you win, sometimes the tide wins. Been there, done that, many times. Sometimes the iron genny is the only way home.

Sounds like you're doing most of the 'right stuff'.

Tell-tales are about the cheapest performance improvement you can do to a boat... aside from scrubbing the bottom! You have a windex on the masthead... yes?

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2008 : 21:04:45

Hard to get perfect --- sail trim to fight wind and current!
Easy way out --- wait to cast off for favorable winds and tides!

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2008 : 21:58:06

Thinking about it... Since your true course isn't likely to be much better than 45 degrees off the true wind (apparent wind and leeway can make it appear you're sailing much higher), to make <i>any</i> progress against a 3.5 knot current going the same direction as the wind, your boat speed will have to be above 5 knots (if my simple geometry is correct), and then the progress won't be much. Of course, the iron genny can point you up to zero degrees apparent, so 5 knots will give you 1.5 VMG. As Clam says, sometimes that's what it takes to get home. And some of those boats you were comparing yourself to might have been motor-sailing for just that reason.

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ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2008 : 06:14:31

Yes a bottom cleaning will help too. It's amazing how much our boats slow down with the drag of bottom growth. Talk with dock neighbors about how they clean their bottom. You could have the boat hauled and done my the marina (if they offer that service), or you could hire a diver to scrape it in the slip. It will help, but it probably wouldn't help a whole lot against the current and wind coming out of the direction you want to go.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2008 : 07:33:36

Into the wind and against a 3.5kt current, I would just motor in with the main up. If you motor at 5kts, then your SOG would still only be 1.5kts against that current. My math skills are not what they were, but if your SOG were only 1.5kts motoring straight into the wind and current, beating at 5kts at 45 degrees, I'd imagine you would lose ground trying to tack against that current.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2008 : 08:40:30

I agree that the best remedy is to start the engine and either motor or motor-sail against a 3 1/2 kt. current.

However, current is significantly weaker in shallower water. If you can go from 20-30' depths to 6-8' depths, or less, you'll have a better chance of making it under sail, and you'll make faster time under power. But, be very watchful when you go into shallow water where there's a strong current. If the conditions are just right, it can create breakers. It isn't likely to happen where the current is spread over a wide area, but if the flow is through a constricted area, such as a narrow channel, that's where it's most likely to happen.

Most strong currents are tidal currents, and they ebb and flow regularly. If you can't get in, drop the anchor and wait for the tide to change.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2008 : 08:48:32

>"hauled and done my the marina (if they offer that service), or you could hire a diver to scrape it in the slip."

Check out the 'Dri-diver' They do a pretty good job.

http://dridiver.com/index.html

Wow... these used to cost $60. They are pretty proud of 'em now.
You could build one of your own pretty easily.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2008 : 11:10:50

Some guys at our club made a scrubber out of PVC pipe and a boat fender covered with an abrasive pad wrapped around the fender. The pipe was fitted with T's and elbows at one end to form 2 arms between which the fender is suspended.

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PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2008 : 15:54:16

Had same thing last weekend. Had a nice downwind ride wing & wing with pole set all the way from Brisbane/Oyster Pt. to Entrance of Redwood City Channel. Then the work began beating back. About an hour and 40 mins downwind.It was dramatic crabbing and clawing back under the San Mateo Bridge but once om the north side just did a couple of really long tacks not bothering about trying to point too close. Set the tiller tamer instead of the autohelm as it kinda goes with the flow. Did lunch and got out of the wind some and waited it out. Wound up last few miles reefed. Was a bit bumpy too. About three hours or so beating.

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Phredde
Navigator

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125 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2008 : 00:23:32

Wow, thanks for the advice - and the support, I appreciate it. Sounds sappy, but knowing I'm not alone really helps.

Yes, the windex helped a lot. Tell tails are my next project. I've never seen a VMG setting on my old gps unit (Garmin 76), but will look for it the next time I have it in hand. Then lower pointing, higher speed, longer tacks, and a cleaner bottom might be the right combination.

Unfortunately waiting out the tide wasn't too much of an option this last time, so the iron genny got us the last mile home.

Thanks again -

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2008 : 08:15:35

I had the same scenario last week-end. Sailing the ICW south against a 2-3kt. current in to a southeast wind that get's *channeled by the river.
I know what would have helped me some; a new main. Mine's original and blown out. + wing keel + small channel = iron Genny.

*meaning that if the wind is south "anything", the physical dimensions of the river that runs north to south cause it to be a south wind.

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