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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/06/2008 : 15:52:43

Check out this new idea from a major player in sailing. Looks fast, efficient and easy.

[url="http://www.garryhoyt.com/id32.html"]HBR[/url]

I especially like his comments about respecting the past but not being locked to it.

We cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2008 : 17:00:15

Very interesting video. Looks like it could work. I'd love to see a video showing 2 identical hulls, one with the new rig and one with a traditional masthead main/genoa rig. As always, the proof will be on the racecourse!

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2008 : 18:09:31

Interesting.
He's offering the design to any qualified boat builder. I wonder if anyone will take him up on his offer.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2008 : 18:18:55

Pretty cool. It does bring to mind the old square riggers going to windward. Obviously they didn't get as close as the HBR does but it seems to be a similar concept. What's old is new again?????

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/06/2008 : 18:23:14

I watched these Cat rigged boats racing on San Fran Bay last summer. They seemed to be more upright that the sloop rigged boats on this last leg to the finish line. They definitely tacked faster than the sloops.
Could not help but think about these boats when Mr Hoyt was talking about how the Cat rigged sail gets distorted on a run. These two certainly did not have the problem he illustrated.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2008 : 18:23:36

Disturbs my sense of symmetry but looks workable. Reminicient of a lateen rig. I would love to try it out.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2008 : 19:15:01

I think the romantic idea of sailing combined with a generally traditionally conservative attitude tends to keep our sport from evolving from a technological perspective. Thank goodness for competitive racing which developed the use of Kevlar, squared sails and other advancements. The thirst for speed and simplicity will transcend this conservative tendency all the way to cruisers where I see early adopters like myself buying into this. I do not find the design to be bizarre or ugly.

I feel the idea takes from the Chinese junk rig dating back to the 2nd Centry AD:

With the junk rig you get the same thin luff and the sail is somewhat squared. Innovations include an offset mast arm, a sleeved mast for reducing drag. I see the Hoyt design as a modernization of the Chinese rig with apealing clean lines well matched with today's modern boat designs. I would seriously consider this rig over a traditional rig.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 03/06/2008 19:37:24

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2008 : 21:11:47

(Note: I watched this without sound, so I missed what the talking head had to offer, but...) What happened to the "balanced" rig Hunter was offering on one of its daysailers? It was a single sail with the boom extending forward of the mast, but not the lower aspect of Hoyt's gaff rig. So what's new?? Actually, I can't see why it's better than a catboat rig, which also looks better to a traditionalist. "The wind doesn't care about the centerline", but gravity knows the difference, so one tack will be favored over the other. Gary's jib boom was a good one--this doesn't impress me. I'd like to see it up against a Sun Cat some other catboat with a relatively modern hull... and maybe that cute sock over the mast.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/06/2008 21:50:15

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2008 : 21:57:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">"The wind doesn't care about the centerline", but gravity knows the difference<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

He also says: the rudder doesn't care where it is either.

A trend or a curiosity? He has the credentials and contacts to affect an industry.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2008 : 22:27:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">"The wind doesn't care about the centerline", but gravity knows the difference<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">He also says: the rudder doesn't care where it is either.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">OK, I have no credentials, but the rudder knows. The flow off the hull form and the rudder depth will certainly be different. Dual rudders can solve that. I think Gary's reaching--in the literary sense, not the sailing sense.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2008 : 22:45:00

Dave you really need to listen to the guy.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 07:16:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Dave you really need to listen to the guy.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Agreed. As I heard him, a significant difference is the sail area forward of the mast, which acts exactly like a balanced rudder -- reducing weather helm and controlling gybes. As ugly as it is, I'm intrigued.

I have to admit that I increasingly hate genoas. It seems to me as though I'm seeing more and more Bermuda/Marconi rigs like ours now being designed with boomed foresails. To work efficiently, that requires that the mast be farther forward than a "traditional" sloop rig like ours. I.e., we could put jib booms on a C25, but the main is still too small for that kind of rig to work efficiently. Look, for example, at those beautiful Alerions, all of which are easily single-handed because of the self-tacking, boomed jibs. The HBR attacks the problem more radically.

My only question to Hoyt would be whether it would be more efficient to allow the gaff boom to travel vertically as the sail is reefed, as is the case with a junk. It seems to me that a deeply reefed HBR sail would twist at the top because of the long halyards. Of course, a vertically sliding gaff boom would be more mechanically complex . . .

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 08:07:06

I would like to see a comparison of pointing ability between the Hoyt rig and a standard sloop. I know that pointing isn't everything but in some racing situations it can make the difference. Then again as catamaran sailors are fond of pointing out if you sail twice the distance three times as fast you still get there first. But in sailing every change is a trade-off, and I just like to know what I'm trading for. For instance I know that I'm not sold on keel stepped, un-stayed masts for open ocean cruising. Although they are very convienient for costal and protected water sailing.

Edited by - on

kaferhaus
1st Mate

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40 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 08:08:38

I'm very intriged by this...

I certainly wish he'd applied this to a heavier boat rather than a very lightweight daysailer though.

I'd also like to see it perform in blustery conditions rather than the >5mph wind he was demonstrating it in.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 08:10:23

I agree. What he says makes a lot of sense. An exciting design! I'd love to sail one and DavidP you're right, a test between 2 identical hulls would tell the tale.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 08:23:44

Gary Hoyt has done some incredible things with his Alerion single-hander line. He also said it himself that he is a catboat guy. SO, all this is is a Catboat rig that might be able to point. That being said, this guy is making sailing easier for his generation, which makes me think positive about my own sailing future.

sten

Edited by - on

JohnP
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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 09:59:01

I wonder if Gary Hoyt has considered a feature of some sea-going junk rigs, that is to be able to adjust the yard at the head of the sail to spill wind under high wind conditions, like in this photo of a junk in Port Townsend, WA

This question about the additional sail adjustments and other direct comparisons of rigs could have been done with scale models to some extent, but there is no evidence that Gary Hoyt used models to develop this idea from what is in the patent itself.

Maybe reefing frequently and conveniently takes care of strong wind disadvantages. Junk-rig sailors would know this stuff.

His patent covers the unique modern tubular strut that was not easily produced in traditional junk design over the last 2000 years. Multiple bamboo poles lashed together could have served that purpose, but there may have been little incentive for ancient sailors to maximize speed on both tacks by designing a boom and yard held away from the mast. Their shipbuilding tradition was handed down by word of mouth, with no written records! The Gary-Hoyt's of 6th century China were swiftly executed as heretics, no doubt.

That new design element replaces the simple series of batten parrels and boom parrel holding the junk's battens and boom to the mast.

Here are the claims of his US Patent 6,932,010, issued August 23, 2005:
What is claimed is:
1. A sailboat having a bow and stern, a mast rising vertically between the bow and stern, a boom, a sail attached at its lower edge to said boom and attached at its upper end of the luff edge to a small spar adapted to rotate about the mast and space the luff from the mast, means including a strut that is rotatably connected to the mast, means at the outer end of the strut to receive the boom thereby spacing the boom from the mast a distance greater than the camber of the sail, the luff edge of the sail being attached to the boom forward of the mast, whereby there is free air flow across the sail.

2. A sailboat as in claim 1 wherein the boom is hollow and a telescoping spar is received in the boom.

3. A sailboat having a mast, a sail, a strut rotatably attached to the mast, a small spar rotatably connecting the upper end of the sail to the upper end of the mast, a boom, said sail affixed to the boom, said strut supporting a full length continuous boom that extends forward of the mast by approximately 25% of the boom length, said sail affixed at its lower edge to the boom, said strut rotating freely about the mast and holding the continuous boom a distance away from the mast greater than the camber of the sail to allow clear air flow over the sail on either tack.

4. A sailboat as in claim 3 wherein the strut has a tubular member at its terminus and said boom is received by said tubular member that is rotatably connected to the strut whereby the boom may rotate in the vertical plane.

5. A sailboat as in claim 4 wherein said rotatable connection of said spar allows vertical and horizontal movement relative to the mast and the vertical rotation of the boom allows the luff and leech of the sail to stabilize the boom whereby a boom vang becomes unnecessary.

6. A sailboat comprising a hull, a mast extending vertically from the hull, a boom coupled to the mast by a strut for horizontal rotation and extending to fore and aft of the mast, a single sail having a head, tack and clew wherein the head is rotationally and operably coupled to the mast by a spar and the tack and clew are connected to opposite ends of the boom, the length of the strut being longer than the camber of the sail whereby the sail is offset from the mast at all points.

Nice idea!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 10:59:26

OK, now I've had a chance to listen as well as watch... I do like the balanced effect for reducing the impact of a jibe, and I'll accept his statement that the offset sail is a cleaner foil (although the mast drag is still there--you can alleviate that on any boat by shaping and rotating the mast, as his "sock" does).

However, I think he's going to find that in more wind, the boat will perform somewhat differently on different tacks--i.e., better when the sail is offset to windward than to leeward. Catamarans (his analog) are different--the rig is centered such that it is offset the same distance to windward from whichever hull is down. I'm not saying it'll be significant for daysailing or cruising, but I'll nitpick his statement that "the wind doesn't care."

I also accept that the balance will reduce the sheeting load, but it will only reduce weather helm downwind--it doesn't change the CE (compared to a cat rig) on a beat.

The component that interests me is the forward upside-down "Y" stay in conjuction with the two stays between the boom and gaff. That combination is what keeps tension on the leech and keeps the two spars parallel. There can be some huge lever forces on the forward components of that rig, and at the upper arm between the mast and the gaff, which I suspect is the most critical stress-point on this rig. Scaling it up might be quite a challenge. Let's see if an AC syndicate picks it up!

Anyway, two cheers for Gary... He's thinking out-of-the-box for us geezers!

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 14:01:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I feel the idea takes from the Chinese junk rig dating back to the 2nd Centry AD:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yea Steve, I was thinking the same thing about the junk rig. Mr. Hoyte seems to have improved upon it.

Next thing is to look into the fish-form hull of the chinese junk. Vert efficient.

I sail solo most of the time and have often thought of how nice it would be to have an, easy to control, unstayed rig.

I like this rig A-LOT!

Must sail, Must sail. I was impressed at how well it sailed in 3 knots.

PW

Edited by - pwhallon on 03/09/2008 14:02:57

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 15:42:21

Hoyte also has made the the Hoyte boom jib. It is self tacking and improves on the shape of the jib tremendously. The six foot boom jib is said to out perform much larger jibs both upwind and especially downwind. It also is perfect for single handing your boat.

Has anyone installed one of these on a 250 before? I would be very interested in looking into it. Boom costs about a grand and it would require a new jib.

No more struggling with a whisker pole !!!

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 16:04:46

Class legal Turk?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 17:59:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Class legal Turk?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I seriously doubt it, but I also doubt you'd want it for class racing in anything other than very heavy air--on a C-250, a 110 or 135 probably trounces a 90 in most conditions.

Edited by - on

Captain Ballast
1st Mate

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USA
38 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2008 : 08:13:27

I like the modern technology and ingenuity, but this rig seems to take a lot of the sailing out of sailing. Would love to sail one though, he made some good points. Hope he sells big

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2008 : 14:00:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Captain Ballast
 ...but this rig seems to take a lot of the sailing out of sailing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I guess you could say the same thing about auxiliary engines, roller furlers, 2-speed self-tailing winches, self-tacking jibs, GPSs, autopilots,...

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pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2008 : 17:30:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">this rig seems to take a lot of the sailing out of sailing<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yea, Capt. Ballast, I understand. I get a kick out of messing with sail trim, balancing the helm...etc.

But....respectfully. From a solo sailors perspective I think it takes a-lot of the "CREWING" out of sailing. I like that.

PW

Edited by - pwhallon on 03/10/2008 17:34:06

Turk
Admiral

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736 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2008 : 21:59:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Class legal Turk?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I seriously doubt it, but I also doubt you'd want it for class racing in anything other than very heavy air--on a C-250, a 110 or 135 probably trounces a 90 in most conditions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Class legal? Who cares. This is monday night racing!

As for the boom jib, that is what it promises, a better shape sail upwind and down. I've watched my crew lose precious seconds that turned to many hundreds of feet lost to a badly set pole that won't set or won't hold. This thing intrigues me.

Edited by - on

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