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Non-Sailing for Oscar

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bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/11/2007 : 19:36:32

Oscar, What would cause the pilots of a B757 to shut an engine down in flight and land immediatly other than a fire warning light, oil pressure etc? This happened today at KALB on a United Airlines flight from Hartford to Chicago. So then local TV shows local fire-fighters with the left hand cowling open nosing around, no face mask
on, no sign of fire. If I were the mechanic sent to fix that [which I use to do] would really PMO....

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4300 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 : 20:53:45

One possible cause would be a Compressor Stall caused by a bird being sucked into the engine.

Checkout this video -->> http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_Boeing_757-200-Airline_Thomsonfly_Aviation_Video-8457.html

Make sure you have the sound turned up so you can hear the sound of an engine failure!

GaryB

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 : 06:03:52

Great find Gary! What a professionally handled incident. Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice makes perfect.

Paul

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 : 08:37:08

As a passenger only, it's great to see how things like that are handled--everyone was cool and thorough. It even makes me think we should be careful about how low we want fares to go...

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 : 09:53:04

Wonder how the plane braked with one engine running. Must have relied on wheel brakes only. Glad I missed that flight. Equally glad that it ended safely.

Val on Calista # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4300 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 : 10:44:57

It's nice to know the planes built today have enough reserve power that they can climb out on one engine at max gross weight with only a slightly reduced rate of climb (I think this engine was still producing some thrust). In the old days an incident like this would have had a doubtful conclusion.

When you have an emergency in-flight the number one thing to do is keep flying the plane. As you can see in this video that is exactly what they did. Even though the engine had a major problem they established a positive rate of climb and retracted the landing gear to reduce drag BEFORE they shut the engine down.

If you watch the landing closely you will see the plane swerve to the left slightly just as they apply reverse thrust on the good engine. Nosewheel steering and differential braking (using the brakes on the opposite side from the good engine)help keep it going straight down the runway.

GaryB

Edited by - GaryB on 10/12/2007 10:56:38

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 : 11:15:43

Very impressive - this is why I never question pilot's salaries!

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SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 : 14:08:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 It even makes me think we should be careful about how low we want fares to go...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Just remember, most of that fare $ is going to airline execs, NOT the crew (front, back or ground).
</soapbox>

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EAbrams
Navigator

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USA
130 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 : 18:09:43

Here is one that did not end so well.
A view from inside the cockpit and the pilots ejecting

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zN_Zl64OQEw

If you watch closely you can see the bird come right at you head on at 12 o'clock.

As a Wildlife Management supervisor at JFK airport I am very aware of the potential danger of a "bird strike". I work very hard at making sure it does not happen.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4300 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 : 20:34:46

Check this on out.

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_Cessna_182_Skylane_RG_II-Airline_Private_Aviation_Video-7951.html

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2007 : 18:32:36

Evening all, sorry, have been busy.

Ironically I am sitting in my hotel room in Manchester UK, the very airport of the Thompson engine failure.

Albany sounds like a precautionary shutdown. Loss of oil quantity, pressure or excessive temperature. In a two engine airplane, once you're down to one (engine) the book says to land at the "nearest suitable airport". Depending on where he was and what the circumstances were Albany could be a good choice. I am going to go out on a limb though and say that a return to BDL (Hartford) may also very well have been a good choice from a safety/legal standpoint. Defendable in front of the green table with the microphones, longer runway, bettter CFR (crash fire rescue)....and much better from a customer service standpoint.

As far as the Thompson flight......somewhat simplified:

Transport category aircraft are certified, and every takeoff is calculated, to allow the aircraft to accellerate to a safe single engine flying speed, and fly away from the runway, or if the engine failure occurs just before that speed, abort the takeoff and have enough pavement to stop. The latter case does not take thrust reversers into consideration. A fully loaded 757 will stop in approximately 1500-2000 feet from the decision speed....usually around 145 knots. After you stop the immense heat buildup in the brakes (they light up the night) will overheat the tires and they will pop. They are filled with N2 (as in nitrogen) which is inert and would not accellerate a possible fire. There are also fuse plugs in the tires so they don't turn into shrapnell bombs. Occasionally the brakes/tires will catch fire, but the boys in the yellow/red trucks have a cannon on the roof that will put that out pronto, from a safe distance, hence their presence.

That safe flying speed is predicated on weight, temperature and pressure and a bunch of other factors. Light airplanes fly at lower speeds. Right before that speed is a decision speed which is also predicated on runway lenght, and any obstacles in the flightpatch beyond the ed of the runway.

All physics.

Pilots train regularly to have an engine fail, right past decision speed and then take the airplane off, run the necessary checklists, bring it around the patch and land. Like everything else, simulators have become extremely sophisticated and realistic enough that they replicate the airplane in all aspects with near perfection. And although you can never completely generate the mental state you get into when the stuff hits the fan, I can attest to the fact that you forget that you are not in the real airplane.

The condition you create in the pilots is one where the brain goes to work on the procedure. The plan is pre-conceived and we know it works. Even if you stumble a little here and there, you'll get through it and the chances of getting back on the ground are pretty good.

MAN is a near sea level airport, so the airplane does very well here. Based on simulator experience I can tell you that losing an engine in Quito Ecuador, where the elevation is over 8000', and the mountains at the end of the runway are over 15000' it's a different story. Thin air affects jet engines as much as it affects humans.

It looks like the last video is a planned gear up landing. The beeping you hear is the gear warning....landing flaps selected, geat not down.......

Edited by - Oscar on 10/15/2007 18:40:30

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