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Regular Main on Tall Rig?

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megrier
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/30/2007 : 11:44:54

I have the tall rig and as most know, the boom is lower than the regular rig. I often take people out for sails that are not sailors and thought it would be more comfortable to have a higher boom.

So, the other day before our guests came out to our boat, I reefed my main and then raised both the sail and the boom untill the boom was above standing head height. It worked very nicely! We all had more room and could stand up in the cock pit without ducking around the boom.

With my main reefed I still had alot of room on the mast for more sail area. My thought was that I should be able to buy a regular rig main sail and get the boom height I want but yet more sail than my tall rig main reefed.

Has anyone eles done this? Am I thinking correctly?

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 12:15:27

I know that somebody here will talk about the Center of Lateral somethin-or-another but in plainer language, it would seem to me to make you easier to knock down. So, I guess it would work in relatively calm conditions but I don't think I'd want to do it in a blow.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 12:17:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I know that somebody here will talk about the Center of Lateral somethin-or-another but in plainer language, it would seem to me to make you easier to knock down.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

John,

How can reducing sail area make a boat more prone to a knockdown?

Edited by - on

gbeardjr
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 12:45:06

It places the larger foot of the sail higher up the mast is my guess. This increases the length of the lever, an exaggerated way to look at it would be if the sail wer eon upside down. The boat would blow right over

Edited by - gbeardjr on 07/30/2007 12:46:00

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 12:50:44

One of our engineer types needs to talk about that Center of Lateral Resistance thing. But, Gbeardjr's description is what I was thinking. When you reef the sail, you reduce sail area and also lower the Center of Effort .Those things combine to reduce the heeling potential.

Edited by - John Russell on 07/30/2007 13:02:28

megrier
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 13:21:15

My understanding about the difference between the tall rig and the regular rig is that the mast is higher on the tall rig than the regular rig but yet the boom is lower. The regular rig has a shorter mast but yet a higher boom. This would make the main on a regular rig smaller in sail area then the main on a tall rig.

So, it seems like I should be able to make the change without worrying about getting blown over any worse than a regular rig would get blown over. Correct? Because I would not be placing my boom any higher than a regular rig would be placed.

Or are there other differences between the 2 boats that would contribute to the easier knock down theroy. If there are other differences, I would think that the tall rig might have a heavier keel to offset the larger sail area it carries.

Edited by - megrier on 07/30/2007 13:26:36

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 13:22:17

You have about 10% more mainsail area (115sqft v. 127sqft) The mast is 2 feet higher. It's that Center of Effort thing that makes me wonder about the feasibility. It could be, I suppose that the CE might be in the same spot relative to the CLR given the differences in luff, etc. Whew, my head hurts.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 13:23:56

You lower the CE if, in reefing, you leave the boom fixed and lower the head (by easing the halyard). Greg is talking about raising the boom, which is a little different. The CE might be a little higher, but the E will be a little less, so the overall heeling moment might come out about the same.

However, Greg, if you get a standard rig main (3' shorter) and hoisted it fully, the boom will probably be a little too high. (Remember, the SR boom is 1' higher, and the mast is 2' shorter.) The biggest issue is probably whether the gooseneck slider will end up at or too close to the mast gate, which would obviously not be good (even with gate plates). And if it's above the gate, you don't want it falling out when you drop the sail.

You might want to talk to a sailmaker about other boats like the J-24 (there are lots of them trading in sails) that might have a luff length between the C-25 TR and SR that would put the boom where you want it with a full hoist. You also have the option of a slightly longer foot as long as there isn't too much roach to get hung up on the backstay. (This assumes you won't race with it.)

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 13:25:40

Greg,

The mast on a tall rig is two foot higher than a standard rig and the boom is a foot lower. Additionally, the tall rig mast is more substantial (read heavier) than a standard rig.

Edited by - on

megrier
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 13:34:52

Right now, I have the goosneck just above the mast gate by about 2". Without measuring, I am guessing I have raise the boom close to 2 feet. So, I probably have raised it to a point that is higher than a standard rig.

Well thanks for the feedback so far. I am going to sail it for a while like this and see if I miss the lost sail area before I do anything. I could always just raise it when wanted and go back down when winds are light.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 13:38:06

Another possible problem if the boom is too high is it won't clear the backstay--that would be a real problem!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 13:42:15

Are you using a sail-stop or something to hold the boom above the gate when you douse the main? In a stiff breeze, if the slider ever came out of the gate as you're dousing, things could get a little exciting.

Edited by - on

megrier
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 14:27:16

Dave, your exactly right, I am using a sail-stop. Point well taken!

Thanks

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2007 : 22:47:39

I've got a tall rig (TR) and I, too, looked at getting a regular main to use with the bimini. After looking at the dimensions on a few sailmaker websites, I've determined that a regular main come down just below where the first reef points are on my tall rig main.
As mentioned above, the TR mast is 2 ft taller and the mail comes down about 1 ft lower. With the TR main fully extended, the gooseneck drops below the slot opening. When I reef the main, I raise the gooseneck to a couple of inches above the slot opening. This gives plenty of extra headroom, allows for the bimini, and still is safely below the point where the boom could hit the backstay in a gibe.
Also, I use 2 sailstops, one above the slot opening to stop the lowest sail slide and one below the boom which I can move above the slot opening when I reef the main to keep the gooseneck from coming out of the slot. Hope that's not too confusing.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2007 : 10:23:10

IMHO, the best way to accomplish what you want is to have your sailmaker put a flattening reef in your mainsail. A flattening reef is simply a reinforced grommet in the leech of the mainsail, about one foot above the boom. The flattening reef is very quick and easy to tuck in, and by doing so, you'll raise the boom over the cockpit by a foot, which is about the same as the height of the boom on a standard rig boat.

The good thing about it is that your sail still fits your tall rig boat perfectly. If you want all your sail area to keep the boat moving on a light air day, you have it.

The bad thing about buying a different sized sail for your boat is that you might later decide that you want all that original sail area. Or, if you decide to sell your boat, the prospective buyer might be turned off by the non-original sized sail. It's better to keep the sail its original size, but modify it slightly, so you can use it the way you want.

Edited by - on

megrier
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2007 : 11:35:33

Hi Steve,

I like your idea to put in a flattening reef. It gives me the best options to maintain my origianl sail size and also get the most sail area my boat is made for.

Thanks!

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2007 : 09:55:30

Another option, which you can see in the C25 Tech Tips by clicking on the bimini, is to use a Capri 25 sail on a tall rig. I found that the Capri 25 luff gave me exactly the head room I needed to mount a bimini. At 6'3", I can still hit my head on the boom, but it's 15" higher than before.

Brooke

Edited by - on

ajada
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2007 : 05:58:00

And for any Tall rig owner who might be interested I have a used Capri 25 main in good shape, a little dirty for sale.

Arch Altman
#3160 TR FK
raleighwoodcab@aol.com

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2007 : 11:39:00

One other option that I used is to have the sail shop take a bit off the top of the sail. There is less loss of sail area and the sail keeps better shape. I did this to raise the boom above the bimini (I live in Florida).

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2007 : 13:22:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by eric.werkowitz
 One other option that I used is to have the sail shop take a bit off the top of the sail...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...as long as the battens won't get hung up on the backstay when tacking, since that will increase the roach.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/31/2007 13:23:29

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2007 : 18:19:24

Taking dimensions from The Sail Warehouse's website, the luff on the Std. main is 24.6' and on the TR 27.66'. The reef point on my TR main is almost 3' up the luff. That tells me the Std. main is almost the same size as a reefed TR main.
Another idea, which I think has been mentioned already, is to add cunningham and flattening reef eyes 1 foot above the foot. That should raise the boom enough for a bimini.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2007 : 21:42:20

This in in the "tall rig vs standard" thread as well.
We went out again today, Labor Day, to test the 36" bimini with the tall rig theory. We had a nice treat as well. The son of one of my first cousins, a recent graduate from the Naval Academy, came through Nashville on his way to Pensacola to start flight school. We haven't seen him since about age 10, since he lived in CT. In addition to a big family cookout this evening at the home of another cousin, he went sailing with us today and we had a wonderful time getting to know him. Also, it was first time I've seen anyone climb aboard a C-25, at the bow, without the aid of any ladder, etc. with no apparent effort at all. The kid's in great shape! Okay, I digress. We hoisted the full tall rig main, setting the boom gooseneck just below the mast slot opening and secured the boom with the downhaul, and opened up the bimini. It works! There is about 1" clearance for our 36" tall bimini without reefing the tall rig main. Actually, I hoisted the main until the gooseneck fitting was about 1" up into the slot opening, then brought it down with the downhaul until the gooseneck fitting in the slot was even with the bottom of the slot opening and secured the downhaul. This is essentially our standard setting for the main with it all the way up.
Anyway, it works!

To be fair, the wind today was 1-5, and we ended up tying up with another sailboat for a while and went swimming. But it should work in stronger wind too. The thing you'll have to consider is if you'll be satisfied with a relatively short bimini. 36" doesn't give one enough headroom to stand up under it.

Edited by - dmpilc on 09/03/2007 21:43:32

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