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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Snap - not pretty. WB Leak again.

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britinusa
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Initially Posted - 07/28/2007 : 17:18:38

After viewing Phil's & Steve's pics of there WB issues, I decided it was time to go take a look at ours to find out where our leak is occurring.

Snap!
<center>

This is the stbd side of the bilge looking forward.
<hr noshade size="1">

This is the port side of the bilge looking forward, the tubing is for the AC coolant and the wire is the power for the AC pump.

</center>

Looking at this and the other images I took, it seems the problem was poor preparation of the area before the tank was sealed in place.

Discussing it with the admiral, our conclusion is that our repair would be easier, quicker, but questionably better than the factory.

Both sides of the tanks aft connection to the hull are pretty much the same. I'm going to crawl around where I can to see if there are other areas of obvious leakage.

Boat is only 25months old... what would you guys do?

paul

Joint Decision. (Sold)
PO C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Moved up to C34 Eximius

Updated August 2015

Edited by - britinusa on 08/08/2007 13:20:45

rwbragdon
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Response Posted - 07/29/2007 : 05:59:24

Have you contacted Catalina? I'd be ripping them a new one over this.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/29/2007 : 08:19:24

I'm a brit, I try to avoid ripping anything

besides, I found this on Saturday.

Paul

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barleyrooty
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Response Posted - 07/29/2007 : 12:16:45

Clearly this is a problem only affecting Brits living in the states. Does Catalina have some kind of revolutionary sentiment?? :-)

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/29/2007 : 14:08:18

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Clearly this is a problem only affecting Brits living in the states. Does Catalina have some kind of revolutionary sentiment?? :-)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
And I thought we tended to hold up well under pressure and rarely crack!

Paul

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 07/29/2007 : 17:50:59

Seriously, Paul, I'd give Catalina a call. The factory is relatively close (all things being relative) I'd accompany your call with e-mail links to the other threads involving the leaks. This sure seems to be a manufacturing defect. They might even be grateful to get the information.

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suttergold
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Response Posted - 07/29/2007 : 18:11:16

Could it be that boats that are trailered and that jolts and vibration is causing the "fractures" or separation of the ballast tank?

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/29/2007 : 22:47:19

Well the good news is that there is a fix and it isn't that hard, even if it does take some some contorsions. Personally, I'd rather make the repair myself but still inform Catalina about it. No reason why they can't start beefing up that area now as they produce new boats. Youve done work on your boat that proves you could handle this.

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Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 01:21:28

Just back from my first week of vacation. Astonished to see that your problem is located EXACTLY in the same area and how similar the extent of the damage is. Also amazed to see that the problem seems to start on the port side, so it's a good thing that I reinforced both sides although I had no apparent problems on the port side.

Catalina really needs to know about this engineering flaw and reinforce the area from hereon. Paul, I would let Catalina know about it first, then show them what I have done to repair mine before you go ahead. I'm eager to get their input on what I have done and theories on why our WB tears at the seams like this. I feel my fix is good and solid, but maybe there is something that I'm not aware of or should have done different.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 07/30/2007 01:27:52

atgep
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Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 06:08:24

Clearly there are many WB boats that have never had this problem. I think Arlyn has over 15k road miles on his.
I think Catalina would be VERY interested to hear about this. This is not the kind of press that has kept them in business.

The engineering dept needs to figure out what is going on before they just "beef it up" . If you make one part of the boat too strong, the rest will flex around the strong piece and create more problems.

I think a very fair agreement would be a factory repair and written extention of your factory warrantee to cover the repaired part.

With options on most of their new boats being more than the price of a whole 250 you may have to bug them but they should make things right.

Tom.

Edited by - atgep on 07/30/2007 06:09:54

britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 06:52:45

Thanks guys.
In past communications (different subject) with the factory folks, they have been really helpful, so I don't doubt that communcating this issue with them will be any different.

The past issue (keel pivot) was an easy fix and they supplied the bits and more, including extended warranty. The reason I did the fix myself was time out of commission, folks outside of the factory had hinted that it might take a while for the fix to be completed (it took me an afternoon) and it is that same issue that is directing me to follow steves DIY solution.

I totally agree with the need to advise them that several boats have experienced this issue.

Regarding solution. I had thought they could saw tooth the lower edge of the tank so then when they seal it with resin and tape, some of the resin would leak inside the edge adding to the seal. Alternatively, the rear wall of the tank could have a horizontal flange.

The hull is pretty thick in that location: if I recall correctly, the hull was about 2" thick where I drilled for the AC water inlet thru hull. Obviously it thins towards the sides of the boat, so not certain if 'flexing' would be an issue.

As our leak occurs when we launch, I'm of the mind that as the tank fills, the wall flexes and closes the gap, hence why the leak is much less after filling and the bungs in place.

I cannot get to the area beneath the bathroom and the area beneath the cooler.
I did notice the 'white wash' flaking in other areas of the boat, another indication that it may have been caused by a lack of preparation.

I'll call them today.

ST.

Paul.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 19:39:43

Paul, had another idea for inspecting the WB tank. You could attach a web cam to a flash light and view using a laptop.

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 20:19:22

I concluded early after buying my boat in the winter of '96 not to park the boat with both the ballast valve and vent closed as to do so would cause a shift from positive to negative pressure with the daily changes of temperature.

I've always left the ballast valve open a crack so that any condensate would drain out.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 20:41:47

I spoke with Kent at Catalina this evening, helpful as anticipated. Happily he indicated that they have only had a couple of reports of any newer boats having this issue. Kent also described the tank as having a flange of a couple of inches. He suggested I contact Frank on a warranty issue, however, I explained my offer to DIM (do it myself) and he suggested that I still contact Frank. Kent did indicate that someone had put an access panel in the floor of the aft berth to make it easier to get to that area.

I have contacted Catalina on 3 issues now, one pre-sales, and two regarding challenges. I must admit that it is actually a delight to be able to discuss an issue like this without any attempt at butt covering. As I described to Kent, the manner in which my call was taken was totally as anticipated. You have to love those folks.

When I email Frank I'll also ask for recommended procedure if any different than already described.

Arlyn, I agree with you about leaving the tank aired, the air temp of the tank must rise significantly here in south Florida, we drain the tank at the ramp and leave the air vent bung out and don't insert it until the tank is full on the next trip.

FYI, During my phone conversation with Kent, I edited one of my posts in each thread that was relavant and was thus able to show him the pics that we all had posted. That was a great help in describing the issues.

ST.

Paul

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Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 07/31/2007 : 01:42:59

Excellent, looking forward to the Catalina recommended procedure to fix this. I'm hoping of course that my DIY method comes very close.

BTW, I updated my original post to include your picture Paul. As soon as you have the official word on how to fix this I will edit my post again.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 07/31/2007 01:55:03

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 08/20/2007 : 19:14:11

Paul, have you got around to fixing the issue?

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 08/21/2007 : 03:32:05

Steve, here's the latest scoop.
I spoke with Frank Butler and he agreed about my plan to fix the joint between the aft WB tank wall and the hull as per the pic above.

I filled the WB tank slowly so that I could figure out how high up the issue went... Surprise! it did not leak until the tank was full and then it leaked from the top of the tank area. Go figure!

I assume the issue is somewhere along the horizontal flange where the tank meets the hull. I have kept Frank informed. He has been incredibly helpful, offered me the option of taking the boat to Largo Florida so they could put it in the 'swimming pool' to test it. But to be honest, it's not that big a deal, so far, doing it myself. And it would eat up a couple of days for the trip out and back. (Hmmm I wonder if they throw in a detail job?

)

I found a potential leak point on the port side just fwd of the bathroom bulkhead in the port locker. That's fixed but not painted (will do that when leak is confirmed fixed.)

We neeeeeeed to go sailing! Dean is headed out of our way, so Friday = Biscayne Bay!

Paul

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 08/21/2007 : 12:41:08

Thanks for the update Paul. I'm concerned about an almost new boat (2005) having such problems. Especially if you have a top leak. Makes you wonder if there are any other places that might fail in the future and in that perspective maybe taking it to Largo is worth it. Hey, maybe they will just decide the repair is too extensive and give you a brand new boat ;-).

I would still consider reinforcing the bottom aft lip of your WB tank as seen in your pictures above. The pictures just look way too familiar to my problem.

Was wondering though if the way you blow ballast (with the air pump) could put too much presure inside the WB tank and cause all of this?

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 08/21/2007 12:58:24

Bob Jack
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Response Posted - 08/21/2007 : 18:59:49

I have been following this thread about W/B tank leakage with great interest, since I have a 2006 (no problems thusfar). I keep it on a lift and can hear the air escaping throught the vent in the anchor locker as the tank fills. I have never forced air back throught the vent to purge the tank while the boat is in the water, although I might be inclined to someday in the event of a low tide while trying to get her back on the lift....In view of the possibilty that this may cause undo pressure to the tank, I think I'll hold off on that manuver for a while...I always tighten up the stopper plate to the hull while sailing but I'm confused about about the term "air vent bung"..?
What is that...a plug that goes in the air vent while underway?
If it is...I don't have one....
Thanks

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 08/21/2007 : 21:57:50

bob, there's an air vent for the WB tank on the stbd side fwd end of the anchor locker. The air vent bung is a rubber bung with an expanding core. You can get them from most sailing hardware stores.

Ref. Blowing the ballast, our method is very slow, and the air pump takes a good while to empty the tank. We havn't done it in quite a while since we started to lower the bow bunk before retrieving the boat at the ramp.

It's not unusual for us to drop the bow bunk, winch the trailer up to pretty tight (probably about 4-6" from the bow stops) pull the boat out, drain the ballast, push the boat back in and line everything up and snug the boat to the bow stops. Then pull out and raise the bow bunk. I'm even contemplating drilling the bow bunk post in order to hold it in place by a pin rather than rely on the bolts.

Paul

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Bob Jack
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Response Posted - 08/22/2007 : 08:07:33

Thanks Paul,
I still wonder ,what is the purpose of the air vent bung ? I can't think of any reason why having the vent open would cause a problem.
Maybe to prevent any foreign objects from getting in there..??
Bob

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 08/22/2007 : 20:51:31

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">what is the purpose of the air vent bung <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It would stop the water leaking out if the boat turned turtle!

But more seriously... if the tank does leak, the bung reduces the flow substantially.. that's a good thing!

We sailed without a bung for 5 days after it went swimming without authority!

Paul

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 08/22/2007 : 23:13:37

Maybe the bung also keep the WB tank from evaporating? Some people leave their boat in the water for long periods of time.

Blowing the ballast with air (positive presure) would tend to expand the WB tank outwards and the type of fiberglass ripping at the lip that I have seen so far looks more like inward displacement caused by negative presure. I still believe that the most probable cause of WB tank leakage is due to leaving the bung in the air vent while emptying the WB tank on the trailer causing strong negative presures (and driving around the marina parking lot).

Bob, I have since then put the bung aside and sail without it. I forget removing it before emptying the WB tank to frequently. I only daysail anyways and put the boat back on the trailer once I'm done.

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Bob Jack
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Response Posted - 08/24/2007 : 07:59:43

Paul & Steve,
Steve & Paul,
It seems the bung serves no purpose except to prevent evaporation in the boats that sit in the water for long periods of time...(how bad would that be anyway)..Or, keep the water in the tank in the evnt of a roll over (again...how bad?)On the other hand, lifting the boat with the bung in place could cause significant reverse presure...Also, keeping the water in the tank when it would rather seep out the bottom might do the same thing to a lesser degree.(that might just help cause the damage depicted in the photos)
I think I'll contentedly continue to sail the waters of S.W. Florida without one...
I hope we haven't destoyed the bung market
Thanks, BOB

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khamburger
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Response Posted - 08/25/2007 : 09:47:24

I have sailed my boat for 7 seasons now without plugging the air vent. I've trailered and now have it in a slip in the marina. For my money, I don't see a reason for the plug.

If you do have a leak, the plug will simply add a bit of pressure in the tank and I would expect that would actually increase the rate of the leak, not slow it. With the plug out, the top of the tank is at ambient pressure. If the plugs in, the could hold pressure in the tank so it could go slightly above ambient, not a lot, but it might be enough to open a crack a bit wider.

If you try to fill the ballast tank with the plug in, that should actually give you significant pressure in the tank as the weight of the boat would tend to push some water in and the air can't displace out the vent hole. Also, as has been mentioned, water draining out with the plug in would create a significant negative pressure.

With the plug out, the water can't overfill the tank, there's nowhere for it to go as long as the boat is floating. If you had a leak in the vent line, below the water line, the plug won't make any difference, the water and/or air will still go into the bottom of the boat. Same goes if you have a leak in your ballast tank. The water will run out into the bilge with, or without, the plug.

I, personally, just don't see the sense in it at all.

Keith

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