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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/21/2007 : 13:03:25

It's getting a bit slow in here - I suspect because people are out on the water, I thought I'd try and spice it up with a few more rules questions and discussions.

All of the below are either true or false statements. put your answers in a post below - be sure to include you reasoning - that is what makes the thread interesting.

1. If you change any of the rules in RRS the race will be thrown out when appealed to US Sailing.
2. The governing body drafting the RRS is US Sailing
3. Once a boat starts moving backward, she loses all her rights relative to boats that are not moving backward
4. The sailing instructions must state that the 720° Turns Penalty will apply.
5. Before her preparatory signal a boat may touch a mark without breaking a rule.

D. Wolff
DPO C25 Hull 401
Currently Sailing "Champagne and Ripple" 1982 O'day 30

Chief Measurer 2002-2006
Vice-commodore 2007

Edited by - Champipple on 07/24/2007 22:14:50

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2007 : 11:04:39

I'm not sure that #1 is true. I believe that the RRS can be modified in the NOR or as a supplemental notice at the Skipper's Meeting. (For instance, you can alter the length of time allowed to file a protest).

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2007 : 18:12:35

#1 False The local race committe can ammend them to their needs.
#2 False Anyone can write rules, US Sailing is just one group of good old boys with a following
#3 I would say false, as long as the boat has possitive control on it.
#4 True, but I think they have to specify for what brech or condition that they will apply to.
#5 I hope this one is true? At least that has always been my rule of thumb. What are they going to make me do? Make me turn circles and wait for the start?

Edited by - wmeinert@kconline.com on 07/24/2007 18:14:33

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2007 : 20:50:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by wmeinert@kconline.com
 #5 I hope this one is true? At least that has always been my rule of thumb. What are they going to make me do? Make me turn circles and wait for the start?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
They could make you to a 360 after the start... Actually, I'd think you're right--I figure the mark-touching thing is a foul because it moves the mark (temporarily and ever so slightly) and invites chaos at the turns. Before the start, nobody cares--right?

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2007 : 21:33:37

#3 is correct now. A few years back it was OK to back up and hit a following boat - tactic used in the AC at least twice.
#5 is also correct. No foul before the prep signal- a 360 after that.
Also worth noting is that the anchor line is not part of the RC boat, so you can hit it without penalty as long as your boat is not pulled into the RC boat. The barging ball, if used, is part of the RC boat ONLY if specified so in the SI's.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2007 : 22:12:49

This is very interesting. The guys I expected to ace the exam each have a few wrong. I got 4 out of 5 of these right when I first saw them.

I used some very specific wording on some questions- feel free to change your answers before I grade the papers.....

Edited by - Champipple on 07/24/2007 22:16:36

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 09:10:57

I'll take a stab:
1: F
Some rules can be altered, as long as the SI's state that the SI is altering the RRS. Some can NOT be changed - for example the direction of finish.

2: F
I think it's drafted by ISAF, then adopted by the various locales (US, GBR, AUS, etc).

3: T
Yep, if you're moving astern, you have to clear boats that are not.

4: F
By default the 720 rule applies, and that if the rule does NOT (scoring penalty) is when it must be noted in the SIs.

5: T
Agreed. Much is fair game, including using your engine, before the Prep signal.

My $0.02

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2007 : 12:24:39

Still no perfect scores, but darn near close

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2007 : 21:05:42

My intent with this little excercise was threefold. Stir up a little activity in the racing forum. Help people to understand the rules, thus help them become more aware on the race course and hopefully better sailors. Last have a little fun - thus some of the weirder questions.

All 5 of these are on sample judges exams - they have to answer roughly 100 of these and cite the rule or rules that apply. There are a number of racers that haven't made there way over here so I'll provided the answers one at a time as noted by an actual US Sailing judge who took the sample exam as a refresher.

Question 1: 1. If you change any of the rules in RRS the race will be thrown out when appealed to US Sailing.

First - absolutely false - you can change many of the rules. The initial step here is to understand what are the rules - while we race under the RRS, we also in most cases here in the US sail with the prescriptions as noted by US Sailing, The Notice of Race, the Class Rules, the Sailing instructions and Local rules that might govern your club events. The NOR can be changed, but with the rare exception of large, hundred of boat events, you probably won't see it. The Sailing Instructions can be changed via a posting as noted in the sailing instructions within the alotted time. Verbal changes can only be given on the water and only if the SI's indicate how that will be done. (This means you can't call a mandatory skippers meeting and change the rules)

As for the Racing Rules themselves: Rule 86.1 explains how they can be changed -you can change anything in section 3 about conduct of the race i.e how you start, which way you round a mark, you can allow for outside help or turning on the motor. You can allow people to touch a mark etc. Same goes for sections 4, 5 and 6 with a few exceptions here and there. You cannot mess with section 7 (which includes the rule I am paraphrasing here) The sailing instructions must state the change and then need to note that "This changes rule XYZ"

Then they throw in another rule 86.2 that says you can change all this crap if the national authority (i.e US Sailing for 90% of us) is testing new rules.

So what does this mean to you?

I've seen people win races because one guy on the crew read the sailing instructions and new of a change. Another crew checked the board and realized that a waypoint was incorrectly posted on a 30 miler. There is minimal skill involved with reading the Sailing Instructions and Checking the notice board before racing for the day and it is one small thing that doesn't cost you to gain that occasional leg up.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2007 : 11:37:18

I'll Add a few more answers

2 - The ISAF writes the rules, determines what cases are added to the casebook etc. US Sailing adopts their usage and writes its prescriptions, however these are only included if noted in the sailing instructions.

3 - A boat moving astern does not always have to keep clear. Rule 20 specifically states a boat moving astern by backing a sail. So if you are sitting in no wind on starboard but have a current and the boat is backing you do not have to keep clear of a port tack boat who is making forward headway.

4 - is False. The 720 applies unless the sailing instructions or RRS mandate a different penalty.

5 - Most of you got this one correct - The answer is true - You cannot touch marks while racing. Racing is defined as the prep signal till the finish. As noted above you can even use your motor prior to the prep signal - definitely comes in handy in starts with zero wind (distance races)

Edited by - on

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