Association Forum - Rougher Weather Handling Question

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Rougher Weather Handling Question

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

JJM
Navigator

Member Avatar

USA
170 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/09/2007 : 20:39:01

The more I sail the more I realize that I am still a novice!!!

This past Sunday I was fortunate enough to sail from Channel Islands Harbor over to one of the Channel Islands – Anacapa Island. It is about 12 miles off the coast of Southern California and it is so beautiful and serene there – we just love it. We had a couple with us who we took along for the sail and we had our dog.

On the way to the island, we were basically on a close reach, on a starboard tack – wind was about 10 knots, I would say. We turned back from the island at 5:45 PM and arrived back at the harbor at 7:45 – so we made some pretty decent time on the return sail, but not without some exciting moments. I would like some of you who are more knowledgeable and experienced than me to let me know what I should have done differently, if anything.

Here is the return sail scenario:

I am pretty much on a beam reach, port tack. The wind has picked up to approximately 15 knots, with some stronger puffs. I had both sails out (I have a 250 with standard rig and 110 jib). Waves are on the port or a bit on the aft port side providing for some rock and roll action. I would estimate wave height was about 3 feet with some intermingled chop. Waves and winds were ‘variable’.

So we are heeling pretty good, getting some waves to provide us with some nice surfing and my wife asks if I can get the boat to sail ‘smoother’. I was not in any danger that I could tell. Yes, I had to stay focused and adjust the tiller based on the dynamics of the wind and waves to prevent any rounding up, broaching etc.. But I was really feeling like I was in control.

We probably should have taken in some sail, and I realize this now, but aside from that was there any other point of sail that I could/should have taken to smooth out the sail – like maybe a broad reach or a run? Any danger with strong waves/wind coming at your stern? Would that be more dangerous? Should I have close hauled? My concern with changing course was that it would have taken me off course to my harbor, and with limited amount of daylight left and the amount of ocean I needed to cover, I wanted to take as direct a course as possible to head home.

I do appreciate all the feedback from you guys and value this site for being ‘there’ for us who are less experienced.

John
"Enchanted Becuma"
C250 '04 WK #746

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2007 : 21:17:23

If you had your life preservers on,the hatch closed, radio in hand and all the safety equipment available ...well every now and then we will get caught off guard.
Some times we make mistakes and things turn out OK.
If someone expert gives you advice suggest you get there cell phone number so you can call them next time you have a problem.
I wouldn't give up sailing just because of some lack of expertise .
You were born with only so much and we all have to live with you.
paulj

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2007 : 21:44:21

"...changing course was that it would have taken me off course to my harbor, and with limited amount of daylight left and the amount of ocean I needed to cover, I wanted to take as direct a course as possible to head home."

IMHO: Given your description of the situation, you were doing exactly the right thing. A reef in the main would probably have made your wife more comfortable, but I think you've figured that out already.

As far as finding a more 'comfortable' points of sail, you will have to experiment to discover what works for your passengers yourself, and your crew. Bearing off the wind would take some roll out, but replace it with some pitch... ditto hardening up. As your experience increases, your perception of comfortable will change along with it.

Sailing is one of the simplest and most complex things you can do. (Hmmm... sounds like someting Yogi Berra would say)

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2007 : 21:52:01

Hi John... I'm not sure what your wife meant by "smoother"... Did she not like the heel? The rolling from the swell? The latter is harder to control unless you change course--the former, on a beam reach, is often fairly easy to control by easing the sheets until your sails are just filled. You won't necessarily sail slower--maybe even a little faster. And with the sails set that way, you can quickly dump gusts by pointing up just a little, as opposed to messing with the sheets and winch.

Having the swell on your beam is generally easier on the helmsman than having it astern, although obviously it'll induce more roll. I don't like running dead downwind with swell directly astern--the boat just gets too squirrely. And on a dead run, you definitely need to rig a preventer on the boom, especially in swell.

In 15 knots on a C-250, I think I'd want to reef the main and, on a reach, maybe stay with a full headsail (unless I still felt overpowered). The jib generally provides more driving power and less heeling force than the main. (...although I'm more familiar with the C-25 than the C-250.) Reaching in that much breeze, you might even like the jib alone better than a reefed main and partially rolled jib.

The next time you're out in similar conditions, try some variations on points of sail, sail trim, and reefing (jib and main)... Experience is what gives you the necessary feel for ocean sailing. Knowing how your boat responds to the various changes you can make is key.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/09/2007 22:05:17

JJM
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
170 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2007 : 22:41:56

Thank you all for some good advice here. Dave - my wife did not like the rolling from the swell, and since the winds and waves were variable, at times we were heading in one direction only to be rocked and rolled to the other - all the while heeling a good amount. I must say though, the boat handled it very well.

Bruce/Dave I like your ideas to experiment and try different points of sails and reefing jib/main, but I will try that in more opportune conditions!

Paul - this certainly will not cause me to give up sailing - It was actually not that bad at all! I was just wondering if I could have <or should have>

approached things differently.

Thanks again guys!

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
843 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 02:18:31

John,
I think you did the right thing.
I also have a C250WB with a 110% jib.
When I'm on a beam reach, it's easy to sightly point up then sightly bear away.
This slight turning can cause your crew to ask why you can't drive straight.

Bearing away to a broad reach, causes the swells to be on the aft quarter.
Quartering seas make me round up then round down.
This is a much stronger swing and your crew will feel out of control.
I like the beam reach much better.

Russ C250WB #793

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 12:29:31

That was not rough weather.

That was a summer afternoon sail.

No need to reduce sail in 15 knots of wind with a 110% jib on.

I hate to say it, but that was sailing at its best.

30 knots of wind gusting higher, thunderstorms, lightning hitting around the boat, night, waves to 6 feet, that is rough weather. Your boat is safe in that. I was in that last year in the Crew of 2 Around Catalina race.

You just need more time on the water.

Following seas or seas on the quarter or beam give you the roughest ride, as you now know.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 12:33:13

You were on a "beam reach" and "heeling pretty good"? Were the sails over trimmed?

As to heading off in other directions when the waves passed under you, lemme guess,...you have wheel steering.

In my tiller steered C25, when a quartering wave hits the rudder, a pressure is felt on the tiller. When I feel this pressure, I let the tiller move with the wave and when the pressure is gone, I return the tiller to its normal position. This keeps the boat on track as these waves travel under the boat. If I were to hold the tiller against the wave pressure, the stern would kick over changing the direction of the boat resulting in the boat going off course with each wave.

I'd imagine that with wheel steering you would not get the feedback of the pressure increasing on the wheel as the wave hits the rudder.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 15:15:02

John,
The Gulf of Santa Catalina is notorious for having a dual swell. The last few weeks it has had 3-4 ft swells from the west and 2-3 ft swells from the south. Both swells coming at different intervals. This can churn the water up like a washing machine. In addition you may be set up with one swell directly behind you and be broadsided continuously by another set of swells off your beam. Only expirementation and time will provide the best solution. Sounds like you held your own pretty well to me.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2007 : 20:08:32

You have given enough clues to suggest you were likely more on a broad reach than a beam reach. A beam reach is quite easy to hold a steady course, which you indicate was one of the problems your wife objected to.

Here is the deal... The 250 has a very large rudder for her size because she needs it for control purposes when the sail plan is only slightly out of balance and because of hull form issues (too involved for this thread).

On a broad reach with any significant swell as you noted, the swell stalls the rudder as it flows under. The large main when overdriven only slightly will offer an out of balance condition and when the rudder stalls and has no effect to hold the out of balance condition, the boat yaws and swings to weather momentarily and once the rudder regains lift the boat lurches back to course.

The solution for this is to reef or drop the main entirely so that during the rudder stalls, there is not a yawing force aft trying to push the stern around.

At the same time the rudder stalls due to the swell running forward under the rudder, the swell also will impact the rudder. So, the second part of the solution is at the moment of rudder stall... shift the helm quickly to vane the rudder to the aft swell so that the swell doesn't side impact the rudder and cause a yaw force. Of course the helm will need to be returned to course as the rudder regains lift or the boat will not hold a steady course.

Many small lake sailors never experience the demands of this helming but all sailors who have sailed offwind in and degree of wind and swell know the condition and soon learn to helm it.

To recap...when offwind in any degree of wind and swell... reduce or drop the main and use a helming style that vanes the rudder to the swell as the rudder stalls. Doing this will allow a steady offwind course.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 07/14/2007 07:09:44

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.