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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

need a rudder for a 1989, C25

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RCarie
1st Mate

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USA
51 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/09/2007 : 14:25:01

Has anybody had to replace their rudder on this year of boat? Prior to my acquisition of #5947 the PO replaced the rudder, with a rudder from a C25 that was designed for earlier models. The rudders for the earlier models are about 3-4 inches shorter. To make it work the PO fabricated the most God awful tiller strap that you can imagine. Well, I've got 2 seasons out of this and want to replace it. CD is trying to help. Lowell Richard's, at CD, was knowledgeable about my situation, but was most curious as to why I was needing a replacement. Am I the first to replace a rudder on an 89? Does anybody have any experience with a replacement rudder from CD?

Randy

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Heartbeat
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 15:11:19

No '89 experience. I replaced mine (85) last year. It took a little work, but was mostly a drop in.

I did price having a rudder specially built. It was only about $100 more, but since I race, it may have caused rating problems.

I found a shop making molded rudders for our boats. (I would have to search to recall the name.) Again, I was concerned about rating problems.

You can call the Catalina Factory as well. While they are less responsive than CD, they did give me a price and delivery on a replacement rudder. I chose CD because the price was a touch cheaper and they sold me a 'balanced' rudder.

Matt in Detroit

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Don B
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 17:23:17

Also no '89 experience...but last year I did replace my '86 rudder with a new Idasailor rudder (Idasailor.com). Great experience...like upgrading to power steering. Disclaimer...I do not race except for a few beer cans (mainly I bring the beer)so you might want to contact Gary B.

I believe it was Gary B. that switched to the Idasailor rudder but ended up changing out to something else.

Lastly, I could be mistaken but I believe Catalina Direct now sells the Idasailor rudder.

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RCarie
1st Mate

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USA
51 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 18:01:23

Yes, CD does have the Idasailor rudder. The complete kit seems reasonablely priced. Lowell Richards, at CD, is going to ask the company that mills those rudders if there stock is long enough to accomdate my order. If they can't, then I'll have to ask CD for the original replacement or consider other options. That just means a lot of $$$$.

Matt,
I'm in Indiana, haven't start racing yet, would be interested in your contact.

Randy

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 18:18:37

Since the '89 came with the newer, balanced-design rudder that was supposed to eliminate some of the splitting problems, Lowell probably wondered why you needed a new one. Also, because the '88+ models don't have a cut-out in the transom, the blade has to be longer. CD probably only stocks the rudders for upgrading older boats (with the cut-outs). What you need is the actual original equipment, not the upgrade. Catalina might be your most direct source.

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boatgt
Navigator

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117 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 20:22:03

You can also call IdaSailor direct, ask to speak to Joel. He is very knowledgeable and can have a rudder made up custom if needed. 866-400-2204

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 21:15:41

From the former chief measurer, now vc...

Our one design class rules allow for the use of IdaSail aftermarket rudders. Most if not all phrf organizations consider race form to be the class one design rules. (some allow removing the table and all but two cushions etc, but I digress) With that in mind, class rules allow for these rudders - there should be no PHRF penalty for their use. It might take an appeal and a letter from God and or Bill Meinert the current measurer, but in general it can be argued that these rudders are legit.

I'd consider building my own or calling IdaSailor

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3440 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 05:24:56

Coincidentally, received update pages in the mail yesterday from CD that updates pages in the Catalina Handbook they sell. In the updated pages, it has 2 of the polymer rudders. Does not indicate which years the replacement rudders are for but I noticed it mentioned that at least one of those rudders was now approved for class racing. Anyway, recomend check with CD for latest info regarding rudders as it seems some updated info may or may not be on their website.

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 08:25:27

I was looking at the summer 07 owners handbook update too and the kick-up rudder caught my eye. Seems like with my wing keel the rudder is the first thing to touch. Probably not race approved but here in the land of the sand/oyster bar if my rudder were suspect I'd be considering that one.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 14:42:53

Posted by Gary Bruner last June...

<i>"I bought the IdaSailor rudder last summer, too, after my original one snapped off. I thought I was happy with it last fall and early spring when conditions were VERY light. However, with bigger breeze this spring, and the fact that I race and carry more sail than if I was cruising, I found that the IdaSailor did not work well for me.

I kept rounding up both downwind under spinnaker and upwind with the 135 and full main in about 20 knots of breeze. I sold the IdaSailor on this site this spring, with the caveat that I felt it was best in light conditions or for those who reef or shorten sail early."</i>

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2007 : 11:15:29

Posted yesterday by Craig Vitt...

<i>I purchased a C250 WK (#521) over a year ago, and when purchased, it had an IDA balanced rudder...A short time ago, while sailing off the N. California coast, in moderate conditions (20kt wind, 6' swell w/ 2' wind waves), with the main reefed and a 110 jib, I rounded up in a puff, and my IDA rudder broke in half...</i>

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3440 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2007 : 12:14:22

"my IDA rudder broke in half" from previous post.

That does not sound so hot. Certainly would make me think about purchasing one. Things that come to mind are:

The rudder is a relatively new one and yet it broke - That questions reliability of the design and perhaps with no warning signs...maybe a catastrophic failure...happening all at once from the force.

Maybe it was a manufacturing defect and a very uncommon occurrence ?

Questions the relative strength of a polymer rudder versus a fiberglassed or wood one.

Makes one think if a ruddr was going to have a deficiency wouldn't it be better to have one that shows some degradation versus one that possibly just catastrophically fails ? My thought is that a fiberglass rudder at least has the fiber material/matting that overlaps with other matting but a polymer rudder could just snap as it seems this happened in the above case. Guess need more details and how common an occurence of this nature is.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2007 : 08:42:42

Let me be the first 89 owner to admit that he had to replace his rudder. My rudder was split when I purchased my boat from the original owner. I certainly did use it to negotiate a lower price.
I bought my new rudder directly from the Catalina parts dept. I was told that there are two different sizes of 89 rudders by the parts guy. I sent them a drawing, and they sent the wrong one. Catalina paid for my shipping to return it and threw in a new tiller with tiller straps for my inconvenience.
I recommend highly that you take your rudder and draw all of the dimensions of it and fax it to whoever you buy your rudder from.
I wish I did have a tilt up rudder like is out now for my wing keel, but if they are subject to breakage..........

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2007 : 08:44:24

As long as you are installing pintles on your new rudder, you micht as well upgrade to the heavy duty pintles and gudgeons from CD

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2007 : 10:20:51

I'll have to say I was skeptical when I first read about Ida's polymer blade... My presumption (possibly false) it's something like Starboard, which I've worked with. Their instructions call for 'structural support every 16-18" for 3/4" material." I recall also reading that it should not be used for structural components. In other words, its strength is somewhat suspect, and its deflection is probably limited before it breaks like the plastic that it is.

When a sailboat is heeled and pitching in large waves, the lateral forces on the rudder can be huge, almost like impacts. That's why you keep hearing about cruisers and ocean racers breaking their spade rudders, and why if a C-25 rudder breaks, it's usually horizontally at the lower pintle. It's also why many "blue water" yachts are designed with keel or skeg-hung rudders--so the blade is supported from both ends. Absent that support, I'd feel better about cored fiberglass than solid polymer unless I was on a small lake.

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RCarie
1st Mate

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USA
51 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2007 : 15:41:37

Everybody,
Thanks for telling about your experiences with these new Ida Rudders. It'll help me make my decision.
Happy Sailing,
Randy

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