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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

C25 Head instalation

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Johnny Whaler
1st Mate

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30 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/27/2006 : 22:16:43

Hi everyone. Great site here. I have a 1980 C25 I bought last year and I am looking to put in a head instead of a porta potty. We will be on a floating dock next year and the though of putting the tank in the dinghy isn't too apealing!

Any suggestions on what brand head works well and if I should use a fresh water supply or add a thru hull? Also, where is a good spot to put the holding tank and what size and brand seems to work best?

I have 2 small children so we need a head if we plan on doing any overnighters away from the marina. Any help is appreciated. I searched the c25 area and didn't see mention of this.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2006 : 22:24:35

Johnny

Welcome. We moved up a few years ago from our C25 to a C34, so I've learned a lot about heads. A few thoughts:

1. Do NOT buy the cheapest head (Jabsco, Groco) because they break down almost immediately. We have a Wilcox Crittendon Headmate, a middle of the road price-wise and it works just fine, and should be easy enough for the kids to use once they show you how to do it!

2. Go to www.catalinaowners.com, here: http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/menunew.tpl?fno=31 and buy her book, it will answer ALL of your questions and save us all a lot of retyping. She's VERY good. Anyway, Xmas is coming, and it's winter. Happy reading and Happy Holidays.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 11/27/2006 22:25:41

Johnny Whaler
1st Mate

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30 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2006 : 22:28:57

The headmate is what I was going to buy so we are off to a good start. I see it's pretty cheap and has great ratings. I know the general way to hook everything up but I was wondering if anyone had a location and possibly a model number of a holding tank that fit where well. Does this book "break it down" (no pun intended) to the materials and what fits in a C25?

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 06:35:15

Don't go buy the book at Catalina Owners - Buy it here and give our association a few dimes from the referral.

the book is called get rid of boat odors and it is located on our links page, almost all the way down on the left side.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/links.asp

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 07:45:11

this is what I would try for.

look over the stuff at catalinadirect.com and buy their owner's manual.

Edited by - on

Johnny Whaler
1st Mate

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30 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 13:08:28

That holding tank is EXACTLY what I am looking for. I bet it's about 15 gallons. My 5 year old daughter and 7 year old son will fill it up in about 10 minutes unsupervised!

Thansk for the advice.

Edited by - on

Johnny Whaler
1st Mate

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30 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 13:28:51

I just ent on line to catalina direct and they show the holdign tanks for the Dinette not my traditional?

I assume I have the traditional. My table folds down and you sit at either side of the boat and the table is in the midle of the floor.

I'd have no problem buying a manual that shows the proper instalation of the head in a C-25 with proper plumbing. I have all kinds of th original manuals for the baot but none show a specific head system for this boat.

Also, what is the general opinion with respect to water intake to the head. Separate fresh water tank or a sea water? I hear most people are going fresh water and it helps reduce the old "head smell"

If anyone has pictures of their instalation showing where you routed the plumbing it would be vry much appreciated. If you know for a fact it's outlined in one of these manuals I will gladly order one. I havea feeling the are the manuals I already have and are just generic on the heqad details.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 13:34:54

The tank above is for the area under the v-berth which seems like a good place for a tank. $150.
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1159

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 14:11:41

I just got off the phone with Lowell at CD and we decided that the product descriptions were confusing. He changed Product #: Z1987 to read
Holding Tank C-25 Trad, C-27 Dinette, C-30
Same thing for
Holding Tank C-25 Trad, C-27 Dinette, C-30
Product #: Z2364

The difference is 1987 is tapered for and aft and 2364 is not, both are tapered for the hull curve.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 14:12:39

Johnny W,

I converted my 1979 dinette C-25 from porta-potty to marine head. I installed a Raritan PH-II head, OdorSafe(sp?) hoses, and a 16 gal. inverted pyramid holding tank all the way forward under the V-berth.

As for fresh vs. raw water flushing, I use fresh water on daysails and raw water on longer trips. After using raw water, always do a fresh water flush before leaving the boat unused for more than a day or two. The organisms in the raw water die and decay in the intake lines, causing much of the dreaded boat head odor. A long leaf of seaweed in the bowl rim will have a similar effect.

I also highly recommend Peggy Hall's book, available through this website as Duane mentioned.

Here's a link to a previous thread: "[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13771"]Question about replacing head hoses[/url]" And here's a previous thread with diagram in it: "[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13271"]emptying waste tank[/url]" And here's a thread with photos:
"[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=11662"]Holding tank location?[/url]"

A head installation is well worth careful planning and using good quality materials.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Johnny Whaler
1st Mate

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30 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 15:24:48

You guys are great. I am going to buy the book.

I see that some people tap into the drain for the head sink for intake of the head. Is this drain a one way valve or does the water flow stop when it hits the water line? I could never figure this out! I though they were one way valves but then I was told the water will not rise above the water line in the hoses? If this is the case then I would think putting a Y valve in there would save me from cutting another hole in the boat for the intake.

As far as the holding tank, it makes sense to put it forward except for the need to run additional hose. I was hoping or thinking of putting the tank close to the head under the port bench but I see some pictures of a big vented loop?

Now I'm really confused:)....I will buy the book. I think it should help shed light. I would love to see any pics of a c-25 instalation from the head to the vents to the waste pipe fitting to the tank etc.

I really appreciate the info and am glad I'm asking before I make a big mistake!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 20:45:14

OK Johnny, now for what I really think. Our boats are too small to give up any storage area to holding tanks, fresh, grey or black. I think a 6 gallon porta potty holds as much sewage as a 12-15 gallon holding tank because the porta potty does not need to use anywhere near the flush water that is associated with a healthy clean marine head flush. A 6 gallon Thetford 885 electric flush with the MSD (That is deck mountable pump-out discharge, just like a marine head).

http://www.thetford.com/marine_series.cfm
electric flush here... [url="http://www.go2marine.com/"]shipstore[/url]
I and several other have these. I do not bother with the deck pump out because my slip is across the parking lot from a dump facility, but others have them fully installed. Defender has the manual flush on close out.
[url="http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|51|806|81394&id=81395"]775 bellows flush[/url]

I have spent a lot of time optimizing the interior of a Catalina 25 and I value the underberth storage on our little boats. I would think long and hard before I gave some up to have a marine head.

Edited by - on

Johnny Whaler
1st Mate

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30 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 21:01:42

This is killing me. I was at defnder on my way home from PVD last wek and looked at this unit and said "this would make life easier" with the ease of instalation and room. I need to get to the down and dirty now....I have kids and not to be gross but when you do a #2 in one of these I would think it's going to stink until you empty it with the flush opening to the direct sewage. I know if I have a holding tank FAR AWAY once it's flushed it's in the tank FAR AWAY and no smell if it's properly instaled.

I am just thinking on the friday night of the weekend trip one or both of the kids has to do a #2 and we are stuck smelling it every time thereafter someone used the john!

Sorry to be explicit here but I don't want to drop a couple hundred in the crapper if it wasn't what I was hoping for!

This looks simple to put in. A 1 1/2" waste line and a vent correct?

HONESTLY how is it smell wise compared to a real head?

Jim

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 21:11:01

Poo is a blunt subject. If I had kids on a boat with a porta potty or a marine head I would determine their ability to follow directions. If it was questionable then I would instruct them to let me flush for them. The opening to the holding area has an air tight sliding door, it should be open while the unit is in use, it keeps the bowl cleaner and requires less water and flushing to take care of. Some people put plastic grocery sacks between the seat and the tank and catch feces rather than letting it go in the tank, (do with then as you will). The bottom line is that with proper chemicals and a quality potty you will have no real odor problems and you will also develop odor mitigating behaviors that suit you. Remember that marine heads have vents to the deck!

Edited by - on

Johnny Whaler
1st Mate

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30 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 21:25:02

We did the plastic bag rick last year with a small 2.6 gallon tank. I think you talked me into this! Looks like it will be our best bet. I need to get pumped out now so this will work. Now the question of the day is manual or electric? Electric sounds nice but if the batteries die are you out of luck?

I guess the only benefit to electric is one push button and you are all set.

Thanks for the help. I assume you have yours venter to the deck. Where did you place the vent? On the side of the bow area?

I really appreciate this. I need to be pointed in the right direction!

Edited by - on

Dave Otey
Navigator

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USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2006 : 04:21:55

Does anyone know if the Thetford pump out model would be legal in Canada?

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2006 : 09:36:06

With the MSD pump out option installed it should be approved for Canada but you might want to go to the Thetford site and ask product support.
I do not have the pump out option installed on mine so I have no deck vent. I love the electric flush, children might love it too much. It takes four AA batteries so having back up isn't hard, I changed mine at launch but did not need to.

Edited by - on

SJ
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2006 : 12:02:15

I did this installation this past year. I knew what I was in for before I started the project, and what a project it was. I did not go with the formed tank, as it required a few too many boat units. I went with a 15 Gal rectangular unit that I mounted up in the vee birth area. Installed two wooden stringers to support it underneath and hooked the forward sink into the intake plumbing. I also added a strainer to help reduce the "stuff" that gets into the plumbing. The head mounting was fairly straight forward, bolting it to the floor and reinforced with a CCA 2 x 4 for extra strength. I did make two inspection ports, one for the mounting hardware and a second behind the head unit for plumbing etc. I then installed a 2" bronze seacock in the port side settee (?) and ran flexible "POO GRADE" piping from the head to the valve. Lots of nervous energy when the boat went splash for the first time. I still don't understand the whole aspect of drilling holes in boats. Scary! No leaks! HOORAY! I then added a deck pump out and vent to the system, both of those very easy. All in all, about 20 or so hours, mostly in glass work and in squeezing myself into areas of the boat that were just not to be squeezed into. Cost, about 400 boat units vs. what you would pay at the local boat yard...$1000 or so.... BIG savings. The admiral is very happy now, so that means I'm happy....:) GO FOR IT. Dragging a full and rather smelly porti-pottie home is no fun, especially if you hit a bump on the way home!

Edited by - on

Jmurfy
Navigator

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USA
176 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2006 : 18:46:07

I think a marine head is a small luxury that makes our small boats feel bigger.

Edited by - on

Johnny Whaler
1st Mate

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30 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2006 : 19:52:24

SJ, the 2" bronze seacock I am guessing is for dumping in open water?

How exactly did you tap into the foward sink plumbing. I assume this is the plumbing in the aft section of the V-berth. You just tapped into that for the intake?

My questions are, if the holding tank is up on stringers in the v-berth I would think it was higher than the head. Can you run a direct 1 1/2" line to it or does it need to be looped and vented?

Also, what glass work was involved?

My biggest "wonders" are what keps the intake from just fillign the bowl and overflowing and what is the best way to run the sewage line to the tank if the tank is higher than the head?

I am hoping the boat odor book covers this stuff.

Edited by - on

SJ
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 11:53:45

Yes, the seacock is for open water discharge. Thought it would be a good idea to have an out in case something bad happened. The plumbing up forwqard was quite easy, I added a tee into the sink drain right at the thru hull and then a ball valve on either side of the tee. I shut off the sink and open the head intake and then switch when I need to drain the sink. I put a loop in the intake to the head as well as discharge, and never had any isses with back flow. The one thing I do is when we leave the boat I pump the head dry then add some fresh water to the head, pump dry then add some magic blue liquid in to help with the smell. When I remembered to do this, there was no stink, when I forgot...well you get the picture(scent)...Not much to the install just took a lot of time, but well worth the effort.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 19:48:30

>" what keps the intake from just filling the bowl and overflowing"

It's not just an open line from the outside to the bowl. The pump section is designed so it must be operated to fill the bowl.

That said, there should be a manual shutoff valve on the intake that is closed when the head is not in use and/or the boat is underway. There have been lots of boats sunk by flooding through the head.

Edited by - on

SJ
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2006 : 11:58:14

There of course is a shut off valve on the intake, as well as a loop.

Edited by - on

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