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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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pull / pull steering failure

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/19/2006 : 21:22:21

I received a report of a failure of one of the eye bolts. Suggesting a periodic check for bent eye bolts. Let the forum know if you find any.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

N/E Texas and Great Lakes
Arlyn's Sailing Site

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2006 : 21:57:50

Arlyn, can you elaborate?

My greatest concern with the 250 steering (wheel) right now is the sloppy links. At night at anchor I have to put a bungee on the rudder to the obs seat to stop it slapping around.
Are you saying that there are other worries here?

This weekend, we spent time on Biscayne bay, Friday night was choppy, the keel slapped around all night long, and the rudder slap was nothing in comparison. But on Saturday night, the seas were calm and the rudder slapping was more significant, so we put on the bungee, it cured it and left us listening to the slap of the keel.
We're well aware of the sloppy linkage on the wheel setup.
The easiest way of finding it present is to lock the wheel and then try to move the rudder manually. It'll move almost 2"!!!!

Not good.

Paul

Edited by - on

Dkn420
Captain

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USA
298 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2006 : 22:08:16

Arlyn: I found the failure item on my wheel steering...It is part #618 in the Edson Small Boat Wheel Steering that is installed on the C250, and it is an "eyebolt". With all of the rain in CA I haven't had the chance to remove the "eyebolt" to see close-up how or why it failed. I may send it to a metallurgist friend of mine to see if he can do an analysis of the particular bolt to see if it was "bad" when it was installed...I will take some photos once it is out of the boat and pass them along...also, if I do get an analysis I will pass that along too...Dan #727

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2006 : 06:45:34

Paul, The steering system does not employ arc compensation (as obtained by a quadrant)to keep cable tension the same through the full swing of the rudder. The result is the cable tightens as the rudder is swung to its stops. If the cable tension were adjusted tight at center, it would bind before reaching the stops so the tension should be adjusted firm with the rudder hard over and as you point out, at center rudder unavoidable play will exist.

To avoid the slap while at anchor, parking the rudder full over and engaging the steering lock should solve the problem.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2006 : 07:00:20

Dan, Thanks for the report and my curiosity is piqued as to the results of what is discerned about the eye bolt.

The owner who wrote me detailed that he believed the pin through the rudder arm that the eye bolts screw into seemed unable to turn freely and that when the rudder swung, side loads were then experienced by the eye bolt bending it.

Check to see if your pin turns freely... it might be that the pin needs greese to avoid electrolis corrosion between the stainless pin and the aluminum arm.

Edited by - on

Dkn420
Captain

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298 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2006 : 10:07:36

Thanks Arlyn, I will check that as soon as we get a break in the weather...I was in contact with Edson and they said they would be happy to do whatever they could to assist in getting everything working properly...Dan #727

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tomara
1st Mate

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46 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2006 : 17:39:49

Arlyn and Dan: Thanks for the warning on Part # 618.
I plan to check mine out this weekend.
This Forum is excellent.

Edited by - on

moserd
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2006 : 20:20:03

I am the owner of the WK with the steering failure (817).

I have been in contact with Edson and they are being very helpful. They confirm my belief (and Arlyn's, thanks) that the pin should indeed rotate freely. Edson has asked that I send them the rudder arm with the 'stuck' pin installed so they can troubleshoot the issue and propose a solution.

I would like to suggest that if you have the wheel option you may want to spend a very few minutes and check if you have a bent take-up eye. As one who has had the steering fail I can assure you that it is somewhat disconcerning. Make certain that you know where your emergency tiller is located and make sure it fits! Mine worked nicely and I was able to get back to the dock with no further issues.

More to come when I get additional information from Edson.

Don

Edited by - on

welshoff
Captain

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USA
253 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2006 : 21:42:39

The pin on my rudder arm has been "stuck" before. I now routinely service this pin. When it is stuck, you have to work it back and forth gently while applying some type of lubrication. It will eventelly free up. I have been using a silicon spray. Not sure what is the best lubrication to use?

I would like to hear what Edson comes up with on this for your fix. As Arlyn has noted before, this system does not allow any compesation for the arc of the rudder where the cable attaches.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2006 : 05:26:00

I'll crawl into the trunk this week and take some pics of the setup, then perhaps someone can indicate the area of concern (from the discussion so far, I'm notsure what I should be looking for.)

Paul

Edited by - on

Dkn420
Captain

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298 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2006 : 11:50:12

From what I have initially looked at on my boat the "eyebolt", which I believe is part #618, is accessed from the inside of the boat at the stern. Untill I get in there and really look I'm not sure how it connects to the hardware on the outside of the stern. Given the hull numbers mentioned so far it looks like a failure in the newer constructed C250's and the parts received by catalina from Edson? It is too bad we probably can't get an Edson representative to come out to one of our boats and examine what apperas to be going on and provide some advice or what the problem really is and the remedy. Perhaps there is a way to jointly ask Edson to send someone to look at one of the boats involved? Dan #727

Arlyn: My steering failed when sailing closehauled...so your thought of it being under load when bending or failing sounds correct...and it is interesting when it fails as sailing on a lake you always seem to be tacking toward the shore in some fashion

I also found out that the emergency tiller works fine in an emergency.

Edited by - Dkn420 on 03/22/2006 11:56:10

Dkn420
Captain

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298 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2006 : 13:30:44

The following is my email correspondence with Edson:

Ken: I finally had the chance to get my boat out of the water and look at the steering situation. It looks like part #618 the “take-up eye” has broken or failed. It is a pretty tough reach to get to that part from inside my Catalina C250 WK. Any suggestions for getting to the part from the outside and being able to put things back together? I live in Oroville, CA which is about 70 miles north of Sacramento and the same distance south of Redding, CA. Do you have any repair folks affiliated with Edson who can come out and make such repairs and whatever adjustments might be needed?

You might want to look on the Catalina 25/250 Forum, in the C250 section as there are several folks who have had what appears to be the same issue I have with my boat, a failed “take-up eye”. It also seems to be it the 2004 and 2005 model years, not any older boats. It is possible for an Edson representative to take a look at one of the boats mentioned on the forum and see if it is an individual or group issue?

Any help you can provide would be appreciated.

Dan Nichols

________________________________________
From: Customer Service [mailto:info@edsonintl.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 1:57 PM
To: 'Danny Nichols'
Subject: RE: Information Request

Dear Danny,
Thank you for your inquiry. I have attached our Planning & Installation Guide for your review. Perhaps you could call me (508) 995-9711 at your convenience to discuss the particulars of your steering system.
I look forward to speaking with you and getting the system back in working order.
Sincerely,
Ken Martin
Customer Service

________________________________________
From: Danny Nichols [mailto:Dkn420@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 2:59 PM
To: info@edsonintl.com
Subject: Information Request

Can you email the “Planning, Installation and Maintenance Guide for Chain and Wire Steering Systems” in PDF format as it is not available on your website?

I own a 2004 Catalina 250WK with the Edson Wheel Steering Conversion that was installed at the factory when the boat was ordered. The boat has only been sailed a dozen times and I heard a loud pop in the area of the steering pedestal and lost all steering with the wheel and had limited steering with the emergency tiller. I plan to take it apart and inspect it to see what may be the problem. If you have any diagrams or tech sheets that would assist me in that process it would be greatly appreciated.

Dan Nichols
Dkn420@sbcglobal.net

I have a PDF copy of the "Installation and Planning Guide" if anyone would like a copy let me know via email and I will attach it and send it to you...quality isn't that good, but it may help.

Hopefully they we be able to send someone out to one of our boats and take a look at things...Dan #727

Edited by - on

moserd
Navigator

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149 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2006 : 18:01:17

Could you please send me a copy?
moserdon@bellsouth.net

My take-up eye broke last weekend :( (817)

Edited by - on

Dkn420
Captain

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298 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2006 : 21:50:28

Don: Email sent a few minutes ago...

Edited by - on

jking
Navigator

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110 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2006 : 07:24:25

Hope to get my boat (with wheel steering) in the next 2 weeks. Did your emergency tiller come with the boat? If not, where did you buy it?

Thanks

Edited by - on

Dkn420
Captain

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298 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2006 : 10:07:35

Emergency tiller should come with your boat. The only thing I purchased was a cover or case for it from West Marine...

Edited by - on

welshoff
Captain

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USA
253 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2006 : 13:43:38

All,
Here are some photos I took today. The pin gets stuck if not serviced (lub'ed) periodically. It is the silver pin that goes through the linkage attached to the rudder (it has the eyebolt attached at top and bottom of it). I keep just a little slack in the cables (not much) to compensate for the arc in which this linkage travels through. Don't leave too much slack or the chain will skip on the sprocket in the pedistal. Have some one turn the wheel from stop to stop and you can lubricate the pin. You can also ajust the tension on the cables via the eyebolts so you don't have any binding when wheel is turned from stop to stop. You will have a small amount of slack when wheel/rudder is centered.

Please advise if anything Edson sent you resolves this condition. Thanks.

Edited by - welshoff on 03/23/2006 13:44:56

Dkn420
Captain

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298 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2006 : 14:15:28

Thanks for the photos, I will post Edson's reply as soon as I hear something...Dan #727

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2006 : 16:02:17

A nylon bushing would likely solve seizing.

Edited by - on

Jim Mc
1st Mate

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USA
43 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2006 : 17:30:36

For thoes of you concerned with Edson's poor pull - pull steering, do your self a favor and install Arlyn's steering upgrade. It is well worth the time and money spent. This upgrade results in a smooth steering operation and no system play. We can now steer our boat with a light touch in 20 K wind rather than the previous "death grip" with the Edson arrangement.

Edited by - on

Dkn420
Captain

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298 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2006 : 17:50:40

Below is the response to my email to Ken at Edson...I can send the PDF file he mentioned to anyone who wants it prior to a post on the Association web site...I think it would be worth looking into Arlyn's solution...Dan #727

Dear Dan,

I have attached our C250 take up eye bulletin for your review. Please note the vertical stainless pin that the take up eyes connect to. The pin passes through the tiller arm. It needs to be lubricated. If it is frozen, the force from turning the wheel hard over will bend and eventually break the take up eye.

We will send a tech tip to the C250 association. Please check the pin and let me know. You may have to remove the aft panel but you may be able to access through the opening for your battery.

Sincerely,

Ken Martin

Customer Service

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2006 : 21:54:49

There is absolutely no question for me that Edson does there best to produce a good product. They use great materiels and the over engineering that I witnessed in the push/pull system witnessed a committment not to cut corners.

Realistically, a small boat wheel steering system is going to be a difficult sell if it goes much over a thousand dollars. To produce an open wire system with a bunch of sheaves would likely up the cost several hundred dollars. Further, the small boat system is a generic system that can be used on many boat designs and a flexible cabled system meets the needs of a generic system much better.

At issue is fitting an open wire cabled system to a transom hung rudder where the normal method of using a quadrant on a rudder stock doesn't work.

Edson's struggle in the design is the short lever arm on the rudder but adding leverage can't be done without arc compensation without increasing the deadband too greatly as to cause chain cog jumping. While the rudder arm may seem quite long, the effective lever arm is the distance ahead of the rudder pintles (fulcrum of the lever) leaving a good bit of the arm simply part of the reciever hookup.

The lever arm is only 5 3/4 inches acting against a 17" rudder. While I know the rudder is balanced, it has 4" leading the pintles at the widest point, being generous and subracting 4 inches from the area aft of the pintles leaves 9". This means the leverage ratio at the arm is a negative lever of .63:1 . A problem is that as the rudder swings, the arm length effectively reduces by two inches at rudder lock with the effect that the leverage ratio has deterioted to .41:1 resulting in a leverage of less than half and stressful to the drive mechanisms.

The prime purpose of wheel steering is to gain leverage over a tiller and ease the helm. The reason I designed the conversion system was the Edson system lacked an adequate leverage ratio. My design was for personal use and I was talked into kitting it because of the machining involved. When first kitted, the only sales expected would be to those who like myself were correcting the push/pull design.

Most of the conversions have been to replace push/pull systems but recently several have been to pull/pull owners because of failures and those seeking a better helm.

This most recent discussion has caused me to look at my design and see if its attributes can be fitted cheaper and easier to the Edson pull/pull design. If the flexible cables could be used, then the pedestal would not have to be dismantled, and the major cost of the conversion system (six sheaves) would be avoided.

There does seem to be a way to use the slotted rudder extension arm that is the center of my design and which has proven itself, with the hardware of the current pull/pull system. The changes to the Edson system would <ul><li>give the system better leverage</li><li>provide arc compensation and eliminate the center rudder deadband play</li><li>reduce failures by eliminating the stress because of the poor lever arm at the rudder arm</li><li>eliminate the freezing point that has been this discussion</li></ul>
The mod would be easier to install than the open wire conversion and cheaper. Because of chain length limitations and perhaps the spread distance of the bracket holding the flex jackets, the mod would not produce the full steering ratio increase that the open wire conversion does but nonetheless I think it would be a great help at a reasonable cost.

Is there someone who is willing to test? I can have a kit (free) ready to ship in a few days and would need someone who is willing to install the mod fairly soon and who has weather now to test. The boat would not need removed from the water though the bolts would need removed from the transom boot and replaced with longer bolts. The battery would need moved aside temporarily as a rudder extension arm is added.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 03/23/2006 22:02:13

britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2006 : 22:02:15

Tempting Arlyn,
I'll take a pic of our trunk which shows the batteries (we have a 2nd installed) and the existing arm and cable system for you to review.
We're taking JD out again mid April.

Paul

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
843 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2006 : 23:07:37

Arlyn,
I'm interested.
I sail the San Francisco Bay and I need more leverage in heavy weather.
My boat is always on the trailer so installation is easier than on the water.
I'm willing to install, take pictures, and provide whatever feedback you want.

By the way, the Strictly Sail Pacific boat show will be in Oakland April 19-23.
Frank Butler is always there (I've talked to him there the last 2 years).
I could give him photos and other information if you want.
I'm an original owner and have a good relationship with my dealer.
Let me know what you decide.
Thanks, Russ (C250WB #793).

Edited by - on

Dkn420
Captain

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USA
298 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2006 : 23:22:14

Arlyn: I would be willing to give whatever you have in mind a try. My boat is on the trailer at my residence. I don't have the battery issue as the inboard diesel and the battery is in the bow. Feel free to contact me by personal email, Dkn420@sbcglobal.net, if we can discuss a possibility of testing or replacement, as I have to do something to start sailing again...if I can help I would be happy to do it...Dan #727

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2006 : 09:15:04

Russ and Dan,

Thanks for the response, two testers works for me and it might be interesting for others to do the dialog here on the forum.... it shouldn't be too involved.

What I'm seeing as a possible solution to enhancing the pull/pull system without casting away the flex cables is to compromise for less lever gain than is achieved with the open wire conversion. I know for fact that the steering ratio of the conversion does what what Jim related above, but what performance will half that gain offer?

Needed first is a measurement of wheel turn from rudder lock to lock followed by removing the rudder and measuring again. I'm looking for a 50% increase.

Basically what I'm thinking of doing is adding a simple bolt on slotted rudder arm extension as has been used on the open wire conversion to gain leverage which should add about half a turn wheel movement. To do that the mounting bracket will need moved forward and I'd propose to do so by simply trading for longer bolts and standoff spacers. It might be that doing that would require a slight bit of relief cutting of the mounting bracket to allow for the arm swing to reach the rudder stops.

The advantages will be

* arc compensation that will provide for consistant tension and elimination of rudder center play
* increased leverage will gain easier helm
* better leverage will reduce the strain point and the reported inward bending of the bracket arms, which results in increased play and chain jumps on the wheel gear cogs
* increasing lever as the rudder moves from center rather than decreasing lever
* elimination of seizing point and bent eye bolts as experienced by current pull/pull system

Also needed are

* does the rudder arm hookup point currently lie in a straight line between the two flex cable exit points while the rudder is centered or does the cable deflect fore or aft and if it deflects, how much?
* the approximate length of one of the boot mounting bolts?

Thats a start... Thanks to each.

Edited by - on

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