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LuckyDuck
1st Mate

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Initially Posted - 01/31/2022 :  23:40:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My old Standard Horizon depth sounder has given up the ghost and I’ve purchased a Hawkeye to replace it. I’m planning to leave the old gauge and just install the Hawkeye next to it. Drilling the 2-inch hole in the bulkhead is simple enough but what, if anything, should I bed the gauge with? The instructions say to seal any exposed wood with marine sealant. But shouldn’t I bed the bezel with something also? Would butyl tape make sense? Thanks!

“Lucky Duck” - ‘87 C25 Trad. SR/WK #5588
Whiskeytown Lake, CA

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/01/2022 :  07:15:41  Show Profile  Visit Leon Sisson's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Re: "But shouldn’t I bed the bezel with something also?"
 
I suggest trying butyl tape.  It seals tenaciously, doesn't become brittle over time, squeeze-out is easy to clean up, and it's easy to get back apart when the time comes.  And yes, be sure to seal the exposed plywood core, just in case whatever sealant you use eventually leaks.
 
Re: "I’m planning to leave the old gauge..."
 
If you don't mind me asking, what size and shape hole would removing your old Standard Horizon depth sounder leave?
 

— Leon Sisson
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LuckyDuck
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Response Posted - 02/01/2022 :  11:18:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Leon Sisson

Re: "But shouldn’t I bed the bezel with something also?"
 
I suggest trying butyl tape.  It seals tenaciously, doesn't become brittle over time, squeeze-out is easy to clean up, and it's easy to get back apart when the time comes.  And yes, be sure to seal the exposed plywood core, just in case whatever sealant you use eventually leaks.
 
Re: "I’m planning to leave the old gauge..."
 
If you don't mind me asking, what size and shape hole would removing your old Standard Horizon depth sounder leave?
 


Thanks for the advice! The old SH is in a 4-inch hole and is pretty well cemented in. I could probably pry it out but it might be problematic jury-rigging some kind of plate to cover it and install the Hawkeye. Just figure it would look better to have another gauge next to it but if someone has retrofitted the old space, I’m all ears. I did see on a previous thread that someone put their Hawkeye inside the old gauge, leaving the clear lens on the bezel. Alas, I don’t think I can get the “guts” out of the old SH without damaging the lens part.

“Lucky Duck” - ‘87 C25 Trad. SR/WK #5588
Whiskeytown Lake, CA
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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 02/01/2022 :  11:57:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have you considered covering the old hole with 1/4" thick white Star Board, or perhaps with a disc cut out of a 1/4" thick white plastic cutting board, which I think is the equivalent of Star Board? You could then cut an opening in the Star Board for the new instrument to fit in. The white cover would match the existing gel coat, and would look like a trim ring.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore
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LuckyDuck
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Response Posted - 02/01/2022 :  17:27:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

Have you considered covering the old hole with 1/4" thick white Star Board, or perhaps with a disc cut out of a 1/4" thick white plastic cutting board, which I think is the equivalent of Star Board? You could then cut an opening in the Star Board for the new instrument to fit in. The white cover would match the existing gel coat, and would look like a trim ring.


That’s a good idea! I’m thinking you’d make the round disc larger than the existing &-inch hole and just cover it? Best adhesive? 4200? 5200? Life seal?

“Lucky Duck” - ‘87 C25 Trad. SR/WK #5588
Whiskeytown Lake, CA
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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/01/2022 :  17:34:51  Show Profile  Visit Leon Sisson's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Steve's suggestion is similar to what I was thinking.  Cut concentric rings to cover the old hole and center the new instrument in it.
 
My boat is on at least its 3rd depth finder head unit and 2nd bulkhead compass, with misc holes large and small from all of them.
 
Still not as bad as the boats I've seen with 6" speaker mounting holes in the bulkhead. *shudder*
 

— Leon Sisson
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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 02/01/2022 :  22:30:39  Show Profile  Visit OLarryR's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I like the idea of installing your new gage on a Starboard cover over the existing gage hole. If that will work, then you avoid having to drill a 2" hole into your bulkhead. Only thing to consider is that if you want to lean on the bulkhead, like when sitting at the dock, just consider if the gage may protrude too far out from the bulkhead surface to make leaning on it uncomfortable.It probably will be okay but give it some thought,

When I attached my Starboard cover over the existing gage hole, I did not want to drill holes into the bulkhead, so I thru-bolted inside of existing bolt circle and utilizing a piece of Starboard on the bulkhead/cabin side, I tightened the bolts to firmly hold the cover in place. I believe I used adhesive under the cover but butyl tape will probably last longer as indicated in an above post.

Here are some photos of the cover and mounting. Additional photos and details of my install are on my website linked to the title "Fishfinder Install".




Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html
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LuckyDuck
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Response Posted - 02/01/2022 :  23:31:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the suggestions and photos! The “plate” idea is enticing as it would look like a trim ring around the new sounder. I’d post a photo of the existing configuration but I can’t figure out how to paste or attach a photo within my iPad.

“Lucky Duck” - ‘87 C25 Trad. SR/WK #5588
Whiskeytown Lake, CA
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2022 :  21:41:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey there Lucky Duck,
I'm the person who repurposed the old Standard Horizon enclosure and mounted the Hawkeye depth gauge inside. It was easy-peasy. I popped the steel ring that holds the backing plate off and unscrewed the switch on the face of the gauge off the glass. The whole internal mechanism just slid out with the backing plate once free of the glass face.
The remaining aluminum shell is a perfect size to house the new gauge body, and the electrical screw terminals on the rear backing plate allowed a perfect power connector. I drilled a hole to pass the transducer cable through and fitted a rubber grommet to hold the cable in place. Rather than remove it and fill the hole, I’d do my darnedest to reuse the old housing.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT
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LuckyDuck
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 02/02/2022 :  22:24:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

Hey there Lucky Duck,
I'm the person who repurposed the old Standard Horizon enclosure and mounted the Hawkeye depth gauge inside. It was easy-peasy. I popped the steel ring that holds the backing plate off and unscrewed the switch on the face of the gauge off the glass. The whole internal mechanism just slid out with the backing plate once free of the glass face.
The remaining aluminum shell is a perfect size to house the new gauge body, and the electrical screw terminals on the rear backing plate allowed a perfect power connector. I drilled a hole to pass the transducer cable through and fitted a rubber grommet to hold the cable in place. Rather than remove it and fill the hole, I’d do my darnedest to reuse the old housing.


Thanks Bruce. I did see your past post but I’m wondering if my old Horizon is different. The only “window” it has is rectangular and is smaller than the face of the Hawkeye. It doesn’t have a glass face covering the entire 4” bezel. I’d like to go that route, but not sure it would work. On another note, did you use the old Horizon (Airmar) transducer? Mine has a different RCA jack than the Hawkeye. If you used the Hawkeye, where did you place it? Thanks!

“Lucky Duck” - ‘87 C25 Trad. SR/WK #5588
Whiskeytown Lake, CA
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2022 :  07:36:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That’s a good question, different models from different years could have been designed uniquely. If there’s not a single piece of 4” round glass on the face, but instead some plastic or aluminum with a small window for the display, then you’re right.
I did not remove the original depth transducer from the through-hull fitting behind the keel in the bilge, but I do not use the old one. I disconnected the cable and tied it off down below.
Instead I used the new Hawkeye transducer that came with the gauge and mounted it inside the hull near the old one. I followed the old wire harnesses with the cable.
It shoots through the hull to get a depth reading. I used the toilet bowl wax gasket method to Mount and seal the new transducer to the inside of the hull.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT
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LuckyDuck
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 02/03/2022 :  10:30:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

That’s a good question, different models from different years could have been designed uniquely. If there’s not a single piece of 4” round glass on the face, but instead some plastic or aluminum with a small window for the display, then you’re right.
I did not remove the original depth transducer from the through-hull fitting behind the keel in the bilge, but I do not use the old one. I disconnected the cable and tied it off down below.
Instead I used the new Hawkeye transducer that came with the gauge and mounted it inside the hull near the old one. I followed the old wire harnesses with the cable.
It shoots through the hull to get a depth reading. I used the toilet bowl wax gasket method to Mount and seal the new transducer to the inside of the hull.


I have the old thru-hull transducer in exactly the same place but also am thinking I’ll use the new one, either next to the old, or in the area below the V-berth next to the thru-hull drain. I like the wax ring idea — are there any specific directions out there on the web or this site? This may sound nutty, but is there any problem with heat and the wax? We get summer temps of over 110* but I’m thinking it wouldn’t affect the wax inside against the hull in water?

“Lucky Duck” - ‘87 C25 Trad. SR/WK #5588
Whiskeytown Lake, CA
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/03/2022 :  15:58:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you search for “wax ring” or “transducer” you’ll find a great number of discussions on the topic.
Bottom line, don’t knead the wax or you’ll introduce air bubbles which will cause intermittency in the display.
The wax gets pretty soft during the heat of summer. That’s why it’s best to place the transducer in a location that will not be disturbed by access to storage of equipment or by shifting items during heavy seas.
I use my Vee berth storage for jackets, sleeping bags and soft goods as well as lines and tackle, so I wouldn’t use that area for the transducer. There’s a hatch under my companionway ladder that I don’t use for storage, so it’s ideal in my case.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT
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LuckyDuck
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Response Posted - 02/03/2022 :  17:02:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

If you search for “wax ring” or “transducer” you’ll find a great number of discussions on the topic.
Bottom line, don’t knead the wax or you’ll introduce air bubbles which will cause intermittency in the display.
The wax gets pretty soft during the heat of summer. That’s why it’s best to place the transducer in a location that will not be disturbed by access to storage of equipment or by shifting items during heavy seas.
I use my Vee berth storage for jackets, sleeping bags and soft goods as well as lines and tackle, so I wouldn’t use that area for the transducer. There’s a hatch under my companionway ladder that I don’t use for storage, so it’s ideal in my case.


Thanks. I have been seeing various info out there on the wax method. Seems to make sense. I could use either spot as both are free of anything that might disturb it.

“Lucky Duck” - ‘87 C25 Trad. SR/WK #5588
Whiskeytown Lake, CA
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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1736 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2022 :  19:53:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was in a similar situation but had two instruments: depth and speed. I wanted to install depth and sail/wind instruments (Raymarine 40 (now 50) series) I opted to remove old, have starboard fabricated to cover both but locate new over the old holes. I am lousy at posting pics, but it looks good and now I have depth via internal mounted transducer and wind speed. E-mail for pics and more description.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT
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LuckyDuck
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 02/03/2022 :  20:13:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

I was in a similar situation but had two instruments: depth and speed. I wanted to install depth and sail/wind instruments (Raymarine 40 (now 50) series) I opted to remove old, have starboard fabricated to cover both but locate new over the old holes. I am lousy at posting pics, but it looks good and now I have depth via internal mounted transducer and wind speed. E-mail for pics and more description.


Just PM’d you! I’m leaning toward the starboard “cover” — just need to figure how best to affix it to the bulkhead surface.

“Lucky Duck” - ‘87 C25 Trad. SR/WK #5588
Whiskeytown Lake, CA
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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/03/2022 :  22:04:33  Show Profile  Visit OLarryR's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I installed my transducer below the VBerth area utilizing the wax ring method. Then as a separate project some time later, I protected the transducers by installing a plexiglas shelf above them so that the area below the VBerth could also be used for storage without disturbing the transducers. More details on my website - See Sections titled: "Fishfinder Installation" and
"Cabin VBerth Hull Fittings Enclosure and Storage Shelf".




Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html
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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/03/2022 :  23:48:32  Show Profile  Visit Leon Sisson's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Transducer Shoot-Thru-Hull Mounting Options
 
Let me start by saying I have nothing against the wax ring method of mounting a shoot-thru-hull transducer, other than the risk of it getting knocked loose.
 
When I phoned a manufacturer's tech support about an adhesive stronger than wax, he recommended epoxy.  I asked how to remove the transducer if it didn't work well in the selected mounting spot (air voids, too thick, etc.)  He said whack it sideways with a big hammer, and buy another transducer.  Hmm.  Not the approach I was looking for.
 
I installed the same model depth finder (Lowrance Hook7) on both my Catalina boats.  I mounted each transducer in a liquid filled reservoir inside the hull.
 
In the Catalina 25, I use the default transducer intended for external transom mount (about the size of a small candybar, pivoting attachment point sticking up from one end, thin sheet SS hinge to screw to transom).
 
For a container to mount the transom transducer under the V-berth, I started with a large PVC sewer pipe cleanout, like a coupling, with female threads on one end, female slip fit at other end.  I trimmed the unthreaded end to match the shape of the hull under the V-berth.  To create a flat surface inside the PVC for the mounting bracket I used thickened epoxy mush with tapped screw holes.
 
I bedded the shaped end of the cleanout to the hull up against the aft locker wall under the V-berth using more thickened epoxy.  In a threaded PVC cover plate I drilled a hole large enough to pass the transducer cable connector.  I top up the water once or twice a year.  (Distilled, if you're a purist about such things.)
 
When ordering the depth finder for the Catalina 22, I had the vendor substitute the manufacturer's shoot-thru-hull transducer kit in place of the transom mount one.  This is a better thought out, more compact, commercial version of what I made for the other boat.  Having a smaller volume, it needs refilling more often.
 
Both installations have been working well for years.
 

— Leon Sisson
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LuckyDuck
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 02/04/2022 :  10:22:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Leon Sisson

Transducer Shoot-Thru-Hull Mounting Options
 
Let me start by saying I have nothing against the wax ring method of mounting a shoot-thru-hull transducer, other than the risk of it getting knocked loose.
 
When I phoned a manufacturer's tech support about an adhesive stronger than wax, he recommended epoxy.  I asked how to remove the transducer if it didn't work well in the selected mounting spot (air voids, too thick, etc.)  He said whack it sideways with a big hammer, and buy another transducer.  Hmm.  Not the approach I was looking for.
 
I installed the same model depth finder (Lowrance Hook7) on both my Catalina boats.  I mounted each transducer in a liquid filled reservoir inside the hull.
 
In the Catalina 25, I use the default transducer intended for external transom mount (about the size of a small candybar, pivoting attachment point sticking up from one end, thin sheet SS hinge to screw to transom).
 
For a container to mount the transom transducer under the V-berth, I started with a large PVC sewer pipe cleanout, like a coupling, with female threads on one end, female slip fit at other end.  I trimmed the unthreaded end to match the shape of the hull under the V-berth.  To create a flat surface inside the PVC for the mounting bracket I used thickened epoxy mush with tapped screw holes.
 
I bedded the shaped end of the cleanout to the hull up against the aft locker wall under the V-berth using more thickened epoxy.  In a threaded PVC cover plate I drilled a hole large enough to pass the transducer cable connector.  I top up the water once or twice a year.  (Distilled, if you're a purist about such things.)
 
When ordering the depth finder for the Catalina 22, I had the vendor substitute the manufacturer's shoot-thru-hull transducer kit in place of the transom mount one.  This is a better thought out, more compact, commercial version of what I made for the other boat.  Having a smaller volume, it needs refilling more often.
 
Both installations have been working well for years.
 


Great info, thank you! The more I poke around, the more great examples I’m seeing. The vendor’s “hammer option” doesn’t surprise me but made me chuckle. I wonder if these folks ever really use their product.

“Lucky Duck” - ‘87 C25 Trad. SR/WK #5588
Whiskeytown Lake, CA
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2022 :  11:44:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Instead of a wax ring and instead of epoxy, are there any other materials which could be used to secure the transducer to the hull which avoids the “air gap” problem.
Has anybody ever tried polysulfide caulk, acrylic caulk or (horrors) silicone caulk might work.
Also, my son does a trick with masking tape - he uses cyanoacrolate glue (crazy-glue) to glue two pieces of tape together back-to-back to create double-sided tape to hold wood in a jig.
The physics problems to solve here are related to the index of refraction between dissimilar materials and maximum power transfer.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 02/05/2022 11:44:44
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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/05/2022 :  15:17:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I installed mine with clear GE silicone. Had to be careful so not to have air bubbles, but it has worked for over a decade with no issues and, if I need to remove the transducer I can do so without destroying it. Will require laborious cleaning, etc., but unlike epoxy, will not require hammer to release.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT
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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/05/2022 :  18:41:47  Show Profile  Visit OLarryR's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Bruce,
On industrial applications, epoxy is used for permanent transducer mountings to pipe. Pipe/hose clamps are also used on pipe for permanent or temporary mounting of the transducers. I forget what the type/name of the lubricant/conductant other than calling it transducer lubricant is used between the pipe and the transducer to eliminate bubbles under the transducers. The transducers are not used for depth or speed readings but for determining fluid pipe system flow rates by utilizing two transducers in line - The signal transmits from one transducer thru the pipe to the other transducer and the flow rate can very accurately be determined. Ideally, the use of hose clamps would be preferable over epoxy for us but unfortunately we can’t utilize hose clamps for mounting inside the hull.

To affix a container/open-ended pipe to hold liquid against the hull so a transducer inside the container can make contact with the hull without an air gap, perhaps a sealant such as what you suggested, would provide a water tight seal for a PVC pipe to hull contact area. Sealants may deteriorate with time but if you initially get a good seal, probably would be fine for many years and then could be replaced without too much trouble.

However, I would still consider a glob from a wax ring since it is so easy to install a transducer and very low cost. You just place a wax ring glob on the hull, smoosh the transducer into it and up around the transducer base and it holds it firm. I installed my transducer back in the 2005-2006 timeframe and have never touched it since then. When I later installed a plexiglass shelf (with sides) under the VBerth area, it was not necessarily to protect the transducer with the wax ring from being disturbed by stowage, it was more to protect the existing thru hulls and all the loose wiring from being disturbed by stuff being dumped in that area. As it turns out, I rarely store anything under the VBerth area......but the shelf looks nice!

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/06/2022 :  20:49:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Larry, that’s an excellent account, I appreciate it. Sealants like silicone are a good possibility, and epoxy works provided you don’t need to make adjustments afterwards.
My transducer works well most of the time, but occasionally when I’m passing over soft mud or sand, I get the “- - -“ signal, and when in shallows, it gives me some agita.
Perhaps I should start over and re-bed my transducer in another hunk of wax, but I’m liking Leon’s pipe solution, except the part about keeping the water reservoir full sounds a little problematic. Perhaps a better approach is to insert a chunk of toilet bowl wax or some thick axle grease as a better medium.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT
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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/06/2022 :  22:24:51  Show Profile  Visit OLarryR's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If you are using a PVC pipe, etc as a container for a liquid to be used preventing an air gap between the hull and transducer, you could probably be able to utilize vaseline and even if the container did not provide a complete leak-tight environment, the vaseline probably will not flow under the container. (Vaseline, by itself, is probably not firm enough to hold the transducer without a container, etc providing some support for the transducer.)

The only time my fishfinder indicated an error was right after I had a hull blister(s) repair job, 7 coats of Interlux Interprotect applied followed by anti-fouling paint. When the boat was lowered into the water, I was preparing it for the next day return to my marina. Checking my fishfinder, it was not reading depths but I also noticed that since the boat was just lowered into the water, the hull was covered with micro-bubbles. The next morning, as I left the dock at the repair facility to return back to Marina, the fishfinder was back to normal. So, it was just the initial launch and all the bubbles that were initially on the hull temporarily interfered with the fishfinder depth readings.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html
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LuckyDuck
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Response Posted - 02/07/2022 :  19:26:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just an update on my new sounder quest… I’ve ordered a piece of black 1/4” Starboard from Defender based on the suggestions here. My plan is to remove the old Standard gauge and plug the 4” diameter hole with a disc of wood or high-density styrofoam. Then, I’ll “sandwich” it with two 5” discs of the starboard (inside and out) and drill a 2” hole through all to mount the new Hawkeye, tightening it all with the thumbscrew from behind. Oh yeah, and bed it with butyl. It should look almost identical to the S-H speed log and wind speed gauges next to it.

I did test the Hawkeye transducer in a bag of water in the area under the V-berth today. Sanded the inside sole a bit and laid it right in front of the through-hull drain. Worked like a charm, even out on the lake at full throttle. Next: mount it in a patty of toilet wax. I’ll let you know the final results.Thanks for all the great advice and tips!

“Lucky Duck” - ‘87 C25 Trad. SR/WK #5588
Whiskeytown Lake, CA
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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 02/07/2022 :  20:55:36  Show Profile  Visit OLarryR's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Looks like you have a plan!

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html
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