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New 3 gal Tank install for 4 stroke

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2015 : 08:34:50

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

One question - how do you fill the tank?

Do you:
1. Disconnect the hose connection at the tank and pop the strap off and fill it on the dock or at the filling station? or
2. Snake the gas hose down to the tank inside the cockpit and fill it in place?

You should never fill a tank from a position inside the hull. That's why boats with built-in tanks have a fill fitting on the deck and a vent on the side of the hull--so no overflows or drips end up inside the boat. Marinas won't (or shouldn't) let you fill a portable tank that's in your boat--you should be required to put it on the dock. Vented or ventless is beside the point.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/22/2015 08:58:27

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2015 : 16:19:07

Bruce, I don't think they should be below deck at all. I've read over the ABYC regs and the way I interpret it, everything fuel wise below deck has to have a 2.5 minute fire rating. I didn't see anything like that on my tank. Don't know about them being grandfathered in, but definitely wouldn't meet current regs. My biggest issue isn't so much about the fumes as it is the possibility of leak with the newer cheap tanks. They aren't built anything like the old metal ones. I think if fumes were a huge issue on our boats, we would have heard of a few them igniting over the years but that's just my 2 cents. Then again, I'm probably just paranoid about gas leaks. The last outboard burst into flames while still on the boat. That and I've had enough close calls with fuel and fire racing dirt track back in my younger redneck days.

BTW, I have the below deck fuel locker and it is passively vented. Don't know if that counts for anything these days.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5232 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2015 : 20:38:51

Until I learn otherwise from the Coasties or regulators, I will go with the following:
1. Gas tanks that are mounted on the deck do not require a blower.
2. Gas tanks that are mounted below decks require a blower fan to clear out the hold.
Full stop.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2015 : 03:37:44

<< What are and where did you source the tie downs? >>

The straps are looped inside some pop up metal cleats I found at Bass Pro shop about 3 years ago. I had the straps and found the snap at west marine.

When I bought the engine I also bought fuel line from the dealer .. $5.80 a foot and it was better than the West marine fuel line..

but wow.. that was expensive...

So anyhoo.. it's really neato to have a tank without any gas fumes.. much less the new engine, no fumes there either.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 03/23/2015 08:40:13

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2015 : 15:26:18

quote:
Originally posted by shnool

How do the Coasties treat these new tanks?
Reason I ask is not every boat has a nice enclosed fuel locker, some are sadly semi-open voids to below, and therefore subject to requirement of needing active venting to be coastie legal.

For the record I was the first to ask

The S2 7.9 has a single hold, starboard to port, with a shelf on ceterline below deck for a fuel tank (portable variety).. and the design is NOT a safe one. I'm debating the merits of installing either A) an active system, or B) a fixed below deck tank. The OPs tank seems to be a viable option that while it may not be officially certified by the coasties, might actually be perfectly safe (which lets be honest, is the ultimate goal).

C&C 32 Smith Mountain Lake Virginia

Edited by - shnool on 03/23/2015 15:27:17

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2015 : 04:44:19

<< My biggest issue isn't so much about the fumes as it is the possibility of leak with the newer cheap tanks. They aren't built anything like the old metal ones. >>

BTW... this tank, was about $56. Not cheep. I think it is built rather well. No leaks as of yet, but time will tell.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5232 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2015 : 12:07:20

quote:
Originally posted by schnool
For the record I was the first to ask.

Yes John, you did, and that's what got me wondering about the theories on a sealed tank. If the tanks can't leak or pass fumes by design, then they might be considered intrinsically safe or were designed to meet a spec that would make them so - I don't know.

Hence my Q - how do we as Vessel Safety Inspectors classify these new tanks?

I've sent a note to the USPS National VSC committee. Waiting to hear back but until then we'll treat them as regular gas tanks.

We do our courtesy checks around CT during the last week of May and 1st week of June so I have some time.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2015 : 19:09:04

Bruce... I was just busting... and we're really looking for the same answer. I would also wonder the reliablity of the "seal," for such an application, and frankly the Coasties likely would too (and inspectors for). Please keep us posted. I DO think that is a pretty "smart" install.

C&C 32 Smith Mountain Lake Virginia

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2015 : 04:07:26

<< Please keep us posted. >>

SO .. I was just tickled pink that I had no gas fumes or leaks and after putting the engine up at an angle at the end of the trip I looked back and the fuel line connection to the engine was spilling gas into the water. I disconnected the line and covered the fitting on the engine with the cover...

That's one fitting that might leak air so I'm looking for a connector for the engine.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2015 : 06:12:32

Sounds to me that there are issues with these ventless tanks, Spilling gas out the fittings/hoses sure seems to be defeating the purpose of them also the safety factor of spilled gas sloshing around the cockpit. Ray your not alone, Just read the reviews on those tanks. So called progress that went terribly wrong. I think I'll start buying up all the vented tanks I can find.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2015 : 06:48:25

<< Spilling gas out the fittings/hoses >>

So far the tank is just fine, it's the fitting from the fuel line to the engine, only when I put the engine up for the night.

Apparently the fitting does not like that particular hose angle...

<< spilled gas sloshing around the cockpit >>

Not in the cockpit, but overboard.

<< Just read the reviews on those tanks. >>

I did read the reviews, and everyone that used the demand valve seems to like them fine...

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 03/25/2015 06:50:31

glivs
Admiral

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USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2015 : 07:05:56

The proper installation of the ventless tanks require disconnect fittings that prevent spillage when disconnected. Curious Redeye whether you used an updated fitting and it failed or an earlier generation fitting. I used the updated fitting on our system and have been impressed by how there has been no leakage whatsoever (so far anyway).

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2015 : 07:14:41

<< I used the updated fitting on our system >>

The fitting on the tank is fine.. the fitting from the fuel line to my new Evinrude 4 hp engine ( from the fuel line to the engine )

To be clear, it worked fine for the trip, 30 min after returning to the boat after putting it up it leaked into the water.

It is a new fitting for the engine that the dealer gave me.

I'm looking to lube it, and to see if they make a beefier fitting.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 03/25/2015 07:32:16

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2015 : 10:21:27

I would guess that it leaks because it is under pressure. This could happen at the engine side or the tank connection whichever is the weakest seal. Having to disconnect the hose every time you shut the engine off will definitely shorten the life of that connection. ( The O-ring inside the connector) The engine side is not that big of a deal for the gas will drip overboard (Better than in the boat) but the tank side will definitely put gas inside the boat. I don't think I would feel comfortable walking away from my boat at the end of a day wondering if it will start leaking as I am getting into my car. If it leaks just one time it probably did more damage to the environment than a vented tank could do in an entire season. Some improvement. Think of it, A diesel tractor trailer starts his engine once, It just spewed more junk into the air than your little 3gal tank could possibly do in its lifetime.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2015 : 11:52:11

<< did more damage to the environment >>

Yepper.. that was the part that got me... all that technology ( and all my effort ) and I returned to a gas slick behind my boat.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

glivs
Admiral

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USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2015 : 18:14:44

Not defending the new tank systems but an important part of this forum is fair discussion. In that vein...(1) WM specifically states that an "integrated fuel system" based on the new ventless tanks requires "self-sealing fuel fittings". I recognize that failure of any component is possible, but in this discussion we still do not know whether the fuel fitting installed was a self-sealing fitting appropriate for this system, i.e. was it designed for a vented or ventless fuel system? The pressures anticipated in the ventless system are considerably higher than for a vented system and require a different fitting. Recommendations are even stated for what thread sealant to use for the tank fitting. Redeye???

(2)These new ventless tanks are advertised solely as "above deck" systems.

I'm done...just thought I would add to the discussion before too many conclusions are drawn.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2015 : 10:09:25

<< Recommendations are even stated for what thread sealant to use for the tank fitting. Redeye??? >>

It is not a sealed fitting that we are talking about.. I'm talking about the inline quick release fitting that connects the fuel line to the engine.

After putting up the engine, and the engine leans over on one side, the fuel line apparently pulls down hard enough to cause the snap in fitting to leak.

Everything is brand new and is probably still a little stiff...

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2015 : 10:18:29

<< but in this discussion we still do not know whether the fuel fitting installed was a self-sealing fitting appropriate for this system, i.e. was it designed for a vented or ventless fuel system? >>

Yepper.. it was the current fitting from the dealer for a sealed fuel system.

The dealer said this is the correct connector.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2015 : 05:53:25

The connection is brand new so it might need some time for the rubber to swell up to seal well.

Looks like the 20 in length is just long enough for lake usage.. I would want the 25in anywhere else.. Of course it drops down with me in the fantail...

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2015 : 07:40:38

<< the inline quick release fitting that connects the fuel line to the engine. >>

And of course the owners manual says to disconnect the fuel connector after stopping the engine...

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

glivs
Admiral

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USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2015 : 16:35:05

Ray...I get it now...that is frustrating! btw nice ob!

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2015 : 05:31:11

Damn, is Tohastu making Evinrudes now too? Sure looks like one.

Tom Curran
1981 Capri 25 Hull #101 "Dirty Debbie"
1988 Watkins 30
PAFB, FL

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2015 : 06:15:34

<< Damn, is Tohastu making Evinrudes now too? Sure looks like one. >>

Yepper.. I'd love to hear something about how that all works. ( whos makin what )

Supposto be a bombadeer ( Bombardier Recreational Products ) which is French Canadian ??? something I can't pronounce..

Anyhoo.. it looks like a Tohatsu to me too.....

I'm thinking about taking that sticker off this weekend.. not yet sure what I will replace it with..

Waring??? KitchenAid??

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 04/01/2015 06:30:48

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2015 : 06:33:50

Did a quick internet search after I posted... yup, BPR is buying it's small (<15hp) engines from Tohatsu. I think KitchenAid will work.

Tom Curran
1981 Capri 25 Hull #101 "Dirty Debbie"
1988 Watkins 30
PAFB, FL

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2015 : 07:47:01

Yep.. I'm thinkin:

KITCHENAID E-TECH

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 04/01/2015 07:48:29

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