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New 3 gal Tank install for 4 stroke

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/15/2015 : 17:21:08

Ventless, strapped down, with inline (expansion valve ? vent?) and inline fuel filter... really a pain to install bent over in the back..

ANyhoo.. I was pretty happy with the result. ( If it works )

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 03/15/2015 17:21:28

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2015 : 17:57:05

Smart looking install

1989 C25 TR/WK, #5822
1973 McVay Minuet 19
1975 Jester 12
1981 C25 SR/SK, #2428
1981 C22 SR/SK,
Tanzer 16
Sunfish

"There is nothing, absolutely nothing half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." Kenneth Grahame

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2015 : 21:04:49

What's the small component between the tank and the filter?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2015 : 03:45:30

Well now that's a good question.. I heard the salesmans ( Evil WM ) "explanation" and I think I read the packing material twice and still did not come away with what it actually was...

Apparently the EPA says the new tanks are not vented and ya gotta use one of these. All I could think was great, something else that could fail and I don't even know what it is........

I'm guessing it is an expensive vent, or expansion chamber, or a PRV, ( pressure regulating valve ) but again..

I don't know yet...

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 03/16/2015 03:45:44

glivs
Admiral

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USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2015 : 03:45:45

I believe it is an "on demand valve", a check valve of sorts to keep a pressurized fuel tank from forcing fuel into the motor.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2015 : 03:46:34

How does an "on demand valve" work??

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

danandlu
Navigator

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USA
167 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2015 : 06:30:21

I installed a ventless tank w/o the valve in question. The tank only allows air to enter, not leave, so the tank won't collapse in cool weather. In hot weather the tank swells up like a tick and forces fuel into the carb which will leak out of the motor and flood the motor if starting is attempted. The swelling is normal and the tanks are designed to handle the pressure. After installing the valve I've had zero problems. There's never any gas smell and no leaking when heeled.

Dan Henderson
1982 FK/TR #3328
"Chesapeake"
Missoula, Flathead Lake, Montana

Edited by - danandlu on 03/16/2015 13:14:40

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2015 : 06:48:16

Thanks Dan . Good to hear it works. I was unclear of how it works so I felt I had to install it above the tank for fear it might it might leak.

I'd still like to mount that valve to the wall....

I took the tank home and got that sticker off of it with some Goo Off.

That's 8 hose clamps on the fuel line.. brilliant... ( and they wonder why boats burn up )

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 03/16/2015 06:56:42

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2015 : 12:36:10

Now the big question Ray, You got it facing the right way? Is there a front and back or arrows on it? This is something new to me and I like to learn something new every day!

Dan, Nice photo! My brother lives on Flathead Lake.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 03/16/2015 12:38:25

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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1484 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2015 : 12:50:13

Here's WM's explaination...

http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--low-permeation-above-deck-fuel-tank-16-5-8-l-x-11-1-2-w-x-7-5-16-h-3-gal--13854203

Jerry

Edited by - jerlim on 03/16/2015 13:11:23

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2015 : 03:55:37

<< (the on-demand valve) is there a front and back or arrows on it? >>

Yep.. got arrows on it showing flow direction. I will go back and look at them again.

A reviewer ( from the west Marine website ) was calling it a regulator .. ( west Marine calls it a in-line Fuel Demand Valve ) I may hafta buy another one of these and bust it open with a hammer and see what it is.

Anyhoo.. it appears to be a closed system pressure regulator. like the expansion tank we had to add to our water heater lines after the EPA ( or whoever ) said we had to add PRVs on the incoming water lines on our houses to prevent water backflow from our houses contaminating the neighborhood..( and the water heater blowing up from this newly closed water system )

One thing I agree with the reviewer.. the "standard" fuel line West Marine sold me is pretty soft and I'm on the lookout for better fuel line. ( however it probably expands and might be it's own pressure regulator )

so I'm guessing it is a reservoir on the bottom that fuel comes into and out of with a wide top that has a membrane across it and a small opening on top. The "membrane" or "rubber flap" can move up or down there by decreasing or increasing pressure within the closed system..

Might have a spring on it with a disc above or below or within the rubber flap...the spring extending down into the cylinder below.

How's that for a wild stab..

That might indicate that if the spring weakens over time the tank starts leaking fuel.. ( that's the planned obsolesce part )

Currently, fashionable, known as the Fail...

So I've got a $100 3 gallon fuel tank that leaks after 5 years??

If you don't replace the in-line Fuel Demand Valve ( FDV )

Or better yet.. keep in mind that if the tank starts leaking, it might not be the tank, you might need a new in-line Fuel Demand Valve

http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--fuel-demand-valve--13854252

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 03/17/2015 05:11:13

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2015 : 08:50:24

I like the idea of this device, it sounds pretty simple and I would install one.

From my understanding, the concept is that the input to the valve will restrict fuel flow under pressure up to 5psi above which it might allow fuel to pass.

When the fuel line hand pump (squeeze thingy) is operated, it sucks fuel and the reduced pressure on the output of the valve allows fuel to flow (ie. upon demand)

When the engine is running, it's sucking fuel, and thus the valve allows fuel to flow.

(After every trip, I run the engine for 10 minutes with a garden hose attached to the water input to clean the engine, after the 10 minutes, I leave the water hose attached and open, and detach the fuel hose from the tank and let the engine run dry, that takes about 10 minutes after which the squeeze pump is totally deflated. ie. there's a partial vacuum in the hose.
Also, we once motored for over an hour not realizing the fuel tank vent cap was closed, then the outboard cut out. I opened the fuel locker and saw the tank squished significantly. The engine definitely sucks on that fuel hose.
)

When the fuel line is being connected to the engine, there will be no pressure in the output line from the valve so no fuel should squirt out of the fuel line engine coupler. (When I'm at the Sailboat Staging area before the launch ramp, I stand on the roadway and reach across the transom to plug the fuel line to the engine, and it often will spit a drip of fuel.)

I'm not sure I care how it works, I just want to know what to do if it fails.

Probably, if it fails, have a spare fuel line onboard to connect directly to the tank and crack the fuel filler cap open to vent the tank.

WM You Tube

Paul

Joint Decision. (Sold)
PO C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Moved up to C34 Eximius

Updated August 2015

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5231 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2015 : 09:32:07

Very cool-looking installation Ray.

One question - how do you fill the tank?

Do you:
1. Disconnect the hose connection at the tank and pop the strap off and fill it on the dock or at the filling station? or
2. Snake the gas hose down to the tank inside the cockpit and fill it in place?

I seem to recall a reg about not filling a portable tank while it's in the boat, but since its more or less "permanently" installed, is it still considered a portable fuel tank?
Hmmmm

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2015 : 09:54:43

<< it sucks fuel and the reduced pressure on the output of the valve allows fuel to flow (ie. upon demand) >>

OK that makes sense... I still gotta cut one open.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3474 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2015 : 09:59:51

<< 1. Disconnect the hose connection at the tank and pop the strap off and fill it on the dock or at the filling station? >>

Yep.. it is a quick release snap on the strap and the tank pulls right out. The strap is connected to some pop up cleats I found at Bass pro shop. The bottom one open physically holds the tank back, as well as the strap holding the tank down.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2015 : 16:54:02

Paul. I have a demand valve I've nver used. Your welcome to it if you want me to drop it the mail. I'm converting to a permanent fuel tank down below and don't need it now. I just never got around to installing it.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2015 : 16:54:45

Ray,
Good thing! I only tried filling my tank when it was inside the boat ONCE! A powerboater came by and threw a wake and it was almost a catastrophe. Saw it coming and stopped pumping but ... well you know.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 03/19/2015 16:55:54

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2015 : 18:24:03

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

Ray,
Good thing! I only tried filling my tank when it was inside the boat ONCE! A powerboater came by and threw a wake and it was almost a catastrophe. Saw it coming and stopped pumping but ... well you know.

Aren't gas docks supposed to be no wake zones?

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2015 : 05:52:44

Cool, tt's nice upgrade over standard vented tanks.

More info about these EPA certified tanks and accessories - http://www.attwoodmarine.com/userfiles/file/Catalog/2014catalog/65-92-fuel_100dpi_2014.pdf

Dalpol Phobos 21, 2013, Sole Mio, hull #27, current adventures - We sail Phobos 21

PO of Catalina C25, 1978, High Anxiety, hull #701, SR, FK, L-dinette, inboard diesel Volvo Penta MD2010C w/saildrive - more info

Edited by - Tomas Kruska on 03/20/2015 05:55:30

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2015 : 06:04:20

How do the Coasties treat these new tanks?
Reason I ask is not every boat has a nice enclosed fuel locker, some are sadly semi-open voids to below, and therefore subject to requirement of needing active venting to be coastie legal. I wonder if these new "1 way vented" tanks bypass that reg.

Also does anyone see a reason to NOT use this kind of system for a 2 stroke? I get that maybe you couldn't use the fuel filter (perhaps a less aggressive filter could be?).. but I was thinking more for the vent free tank.

C&C 32 Smith Mountain Lake Virginia

britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2015 : 06:17:35

Jeremy,
thanks for the offer, but we don't have a tank that needs it. If I did, then I would jump on your offer.

Paul

Joint Decision. (Sold)
PO C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Moved up to C34 Eximius

Updated August 2015

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2015 : 16:03:56

What are and where did you source the tie downs?
TIA

John Gisondi
Peregrine #4762

*

panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2015 : 16:49:38

Jeremy I would be interested it. let me know what you want for it

glivs
Admiral

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USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2015 : 04:50:59

John...We used a non-vented system with an on-demand valve with our '89 2-stroke last season without issue. I agree the WM fuel line is a bit disconcerting but no problems. I do keep a spare as Paul suggested.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2015 : 08:01:38

quote:
Originally posted by TakeFive
Aren't gas docks supposed to be no wake zones?

Supposed to be...

I'm interested in the question of whether such a non-vented tank can be placed in a locker below decks without the need of a powered ventilation fan. Not to brag too much on them but my Power Squadron team accomplished the most Vessel Safety Checks (aka courtesy checks) of any among the 13 in District 1 than any other team including the USCG Aux for 2014. While we don't have a law enforcement mission but rather a boating safety mission, one of the requirements for the safety checklist is a working vented fuel locker unless the tank is stored on deck such as the later C25.
Does anyone know whether this new type of sealed tank may be operated below decks without a blower fan?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2015 : 08:12:54

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

...Does anyone know whether this new type of sealed tank may be operated below decks without a blower fan?

Bruce, for your purposes, I don't think you should go on an answer from anyone other than the USCG or ABYC.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

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