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Swing Keel Cable Failure

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cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/05/2013 : 19:13:46

I just received an e-mail from Catalina Direct concerning a C-25 that evidently sank due to failure of her keel cable. For those skippers that did not receive the Catalina Direct e-mail, I did a Cut & Paste for you in this note

Chuck
--------------------------------------------
Public Service Announcement:
Keel Cable Fatigue Causes C-25 To Sink.

Fellow Sailors,

I just received this email from a concerned customer. I think it's important enough to share with you immediately.

_____________________________________

Lowell,
I was the happy owner of a 1978, Catalina 25, swing keel, for about 12 years. I sailed it on the Long Island Sound, NY, and Great South Bay, NY, every summer and fall for the past 10-12 years. I had it out in rough weather and calm and loved it. Never a problem. I sold the boat in May, 2013.
In late July, the new owner called to let me know that the boat sank! Evidently, the swing keel broke free, cracked the hull and sank the boat, while she was on it at a mooring. She was with a sailing instructor and there were no injuries. But the boat was totaled. I felt awful! I don’t know how much she sailed it, but thank God she wasn’t out on it, under sail with guests, a mile or more from shore. I must say that I inspected the keel cable, visually, bi-annually, and cleaned it with wire brush. I never replaced it. It always seemed ok to me.
Have you ever heard of this happening before? Should a warning be sent out to all owners of that boat?

Thank you
John Fitzgerald,
Setauket, NY

PS. Feel Free to use my experience in any way you need, to alert others to any potential issues you see with this boat. You have my permission to publish this letter.
_____________________________________

Whenever your boat is in the water, your keel cable is moving. Whether it is due to tidal currents, the motion of your boat in its slip, or your boat sailing on its mooring, your keel cable is constantly experiencing fatigue. You do not need to be sailing for your keel cable to be subject to wear. Unfortunately, a visual inspection does not reveal fatigue. This is why I recommend that your keel cable be replaced every two years. The problem of keel cable fatigue is not isolated to Catalina 25s. The concerned letter we received from John is equally important to Catalina 22 owners.

We try not to annoy you with too many emails, but this is very important to the safety of your boat and crew. I know that many of your boats are currently stored for winter, so I hope it's ok to remind you again in the spring. I have listed our keel cables below in case yours is in need of replacement.

Safe Sailing,

Lowell Richardson
Owner of Catalina Direct
Proud Catalina dealer for 39 years

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2013 : 21:51:23

While this may be news to some, it has not gone unheeded here on the forum. Problem is there is little those in the know can do to aid those who are not connected to Catalina, Catalina Direct or this forum. Seems that an information blitz to marinas and fleets around the country and continent is well advised. This will not hit many trailer sailors who are not a part of any marinas. Magazines like SAIL and regional boating magazines should be urged to carry a story on this. Other online forums should also publicize the facts, such as Sailing Texas, Sailnet, etc. Let's hope the word gets out.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2013 : 07:32:07

In this internet world, it begs to be asked, how does a person own a Catalina 25 for 12 years without googling "Catalina 25" and finding this forum? A swing keel owner wouldn't have to lurk here for long until he would be warned about maintaining his keel mechanism, and keeping it down, so that the keel wouldn't drop suddenly if it broke. In fact, when the latter recommendation is made, the owner often has reasons why he chooses to ignore it, despite the warning that a drop would be catastrophic. A search for "swing keel" would probably produce dozens of threads that address the subject exhaustively. How long would one have to own, or even think about a swing keel boat before his curiosity would cause him to wonder what would happen if the keel cable broke suddenly? I think it is unlikely that this 12-year owner was oblivious to the hazard. It's far more likely that he underestimated the hazard that he was aware of, or that he procrastinated in maintenance, or chose to not spend the money. I could be wrong about that, but my point is that he had ample reasons to be aware of the hazard, and ample opportunities to investigate it and learn about it.

Moreover, that potential is not unique to Catalinas. Before the invention of the wing keel, a ballasted swing keel was a common method used to give a boat shoal draft, and the risk is common to the genre, regardless of the manufacturer. I don't think an alert should be made, but if one is made, I think it would be inappropriate to relate it specifically to Catalinas.

Finally, notwithstanding vaguely-remembered anecdotes to the contrary, when the swing keel mechanism is properly maintained and used in the manner recommended by Catalina and by our members, it is safe and reliable. New cables and winches don't break, and the keel doesn't drop catastrophically when it is left down. Thirty-five year old boats need maintenance. Thru hull valves and hoses fail. Pintles and gudgeons fail. Standing and running rigging parts fail. Few of us would drive a car for 12 years without servicing the brakes, and not many swing keel boat owners would operate their boat for 12 years without servicing the keel mechanism. If you do, it shouldn't come as a surprise if the keel drops.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2013 : 08:33:49

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

In this internet world, it begs to be asked, how does a person own a Catalina 25 for 12 years without googling "Catalina 25" and finding this forum? A swing keel owner wouldn't have to lurk here for long until he would be warned about maintaining his keel mechanism, and keeping it down, so that the keel wouldn't drop suddenly if it broke.

Steve,

All of that is true, but the failure happened after he sold the boat. Not sure how long the new owner had owned the boat, and since there was reported to be an "instructor" onboard with the new owner, I suspect the new owner was not an experienced sailor/boat owner and it would be very unlikely she was aware of CD or this forum yet (unless the PO had told her about us).

Most likely, the PO had not maintained the cable, etc. as advised by CD and this forum. I also do not know if the PO had been a member of this forum, but did seem like the PO was aware of CD since he sent them a note, and was concerned (albeit a bit late) about getting the word out on a cable failure.

Seems like this would also be something good to have in the Mainsheet, although skippers that receive the mainsheet are more likely to be on this forum, and also aware of CD, and probably work to maintain their boats..

I'm just glad no one was injured!

Chuck

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2013 : 10:23:25

quote:
I never replaced it. It always seemed ok to me.

I love guys that think like this....If it aint broke.........How would you like to have this guy as the mechanic who just checked out the plane that you are getting on.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2013 : 10:40:24

Publishing a notice in Mainsheet is not likely to come to the attention of a prospective buyer. Prospective boat buyers are highly unlikely to subscribe to Mainsheet before they own a Catalina sailboat. Moreover, it is unlikely that Catalina would permit such a notice to be published in Mainsheet, because it could have severe legal implications for Catalina when a boat owner's lawyer is looking for a deep pocket to blame for his client's foolishness.

I agree with Dave that it's not a defective design issue. It's an issue of poor maintenance and improper use.

The fault is with a seller who failed to maintain the boat properly, and then failed to warn the buyer of a condition that he most likely knew existed. It's akin to selling a car to a person without warning the buyer that the brakes need to be repaired. I test drove a used car once, and nearly wrecked it because the brakes had a hydraulic leak. The seller let me test drive it without warning me that the brakes were bad.

The fault is with the buyer, because she probably bought a boat without having it surveyed by a person who knew about such issues as swing keel maintenance. If she did, in fact, have it surveyed, then the fault is with her surveyer, for not warning her about it.

The remedies are, if you are selling a boat, warn the buyer about hidden maintenance issues, especially issues that involve safety. Whenever I sell any vehicle, I tell prospective buyers of every defect that needs to be addressed, and I price the vehicle accordingly. I don't usually get top dollar for my vehicles, but I can sleep well knowing that my buyer knew exactly what he was getting.

It's easy for fixed keel owners to get excited about the risks associated with swing keels, but, when the problem is primarily one of maintenance rather than design flaw, our members who own swingers don't deserve to have the value of their boats degraded by well-intentioned warnings that imply that they are unsafe. They are safe when maintained and used properly within their designed limitations.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 12/06/2013 10:52:25

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2013 : 20:38:58

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

Publishing a notice in Mainsheet is not likely to come to the attention of a prospective buyer. Prospective boat buyers are highly unlikely to subscribe to Mainsheet before they own a Catalina sailboat. Moreover, it is unlikely that Catalina would permit such a notice to be published in Mainsheet, because it could have severe legal implications for Catalina when a boat owner's lawyer is looking for a deep pocket to blame for his client's foolishness.

It's easy for fixed keel owners to get excited about the risks associated with swing keels, but, when the problem is primarily one of maintenance rather than design flaw, our members who own swingers don't deserve to have the value of their boats degraded by well-intentioned warnings that imply that they are unsafe. They are safe when maintained and used properly within their designed limitations.

Steve,

I agree a "prospective" owner would not be reading the Mainsheet, but I was thinking there are a lot of "current" owners that could benefit of being reminded. I also agree that putting a formal "notice" (aka Warning) in the Mainsheet would not be a good approach, but that was not what I was trying to say. The Mainsheet has a good "Technical Pull-Out" section, and I think it would be a quite appropriate thing to include the importance of this type of maintenance in the Catalina 22 and 25 sections. Its my understanding that providing awareness of maintenance information and issues and modifications etc. is one of the goals of the Technical Pull-Out section. And as far as legal issues, I would think if Catalina KNOWS its an important maintenance area, they would be far more likely to get sued if they did not make a reasonable effort to make owners of swing keels aware of the need for maintenance, and yet were aware of the need for such maintenance.... You cannot stop lawyers from suing, but you can place yourself in a good posture if you do get sued.....

Of the 5 different boats I have owned, one was a centerboard boat, and one was a swing keel. So I am not a "fixed keel boat owner that is getting excited about the risks of swing keels", and I do not see anyone that is taking that type of stance. And I do not see anyone proposing anything that would serve to imply those boats have a design flaw that would degrade their value any more than boats with closed body turnbuckles, or rusting keel boats which can cause serious problems without proper maintenance, and which have been discussed and opinions shared at length on this forum.

I have been fortunate enough to have owned, maintained, sailed, raced and cruised sailboats for over 51 years in inland lakes, coastal waters, and Bluewater, and one of the great points about this forum (and the MainSheet for that matter) is it DOES provide "a" way to exchange maintenance reminders with other owners.

Chuck

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2013 : 22:32:56

A quick review of our Forum Users list suggests that of the approximately 6,000 C-25s and 1,500 (?) C-250s built, just a few hundred people are following us here. I suspect fewer follow printed publications from Catalina, since most C-25s are probably not original-owner boats. Most C-25s are probably owned by people who view them as "boats that I can pull up a sail on, once in a while"--they're not owned by passionate sailors or passionate boat people. I've met a few... and have come to understand why this forum doesn't have 6,000+ participants.

A number of our participants engaged here after they bought a C-25 SK and found what turned out to be evidence of a keel free-fall... I suspect that's what got them to Google us. I doubt there's a way to get to the rest... These are not people who read the trade press.

But we can hope that anyone who realizes they have 1500# of cast iron being held up by a thin steel cable and several other components subject to wear, corrosion, and stress, might wonder what would happen if any of those components failed, and might take some reasonably appropriate measures (like asking somebody). If they don't, then we can only hope the boat sinks at the mooring or in the slip, which has usually been the case. I don't think we've heard of any casualties.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1736 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2013 : 07:02:22

Let me offer another opine . . . . in my neck of the woods their is a very successful sailing school that teaches on a fleet (15+ boats) that are ALL derelicts. Many old Ensigns, a couple of old Saber 30's, an older O'Day, etc, etc - all with very visible hull/deck repairs that may - or may not -- be structurally ok. The purpose of many sail schools, and it would appear this one, is to take beginners out on short day sails to teach the basics in light conditions close to shore. I would not be surprised if this was the case with the lost C25 and the condition of the boat was not a top concern -- nor any interest in our or any association. These places are not run by real pro's like the Colgate's but by locals who often project a sailing lifestyle image more akin to "Captain Ron" .

One other observation: I live on Long Island Sound and had not heard or read about this story. If the boat had sunk while sailing it would have been all over the local news. Possibly their is another angle to the story as well.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2013 : 08:16:11

A boat sinking at its mooring in Port Jeff probably isn't going to make the 6:00 News in CT. Even the ones that get hit by the Bridgeport ferry don't...

I'll also opine that very few small cruisers other than the C-22 and C-25 have heavily ballasted "swing keels". (And the C-22 keel is only about half the weight--I have not idea if it's damaged many boats.) Most other "swingers", like O'Days, Hunters, and C-250s, have centerboards that swing up into keel stubs that have fixed ballast in them, or they are water-ballasted. The centerboards have just enough weight in them to help them swing and stay down--not enough to cause damage. What I'm getting at is this is a relatively rare situation, except for the fact (guesstimate) that there are a few thousand C-25 SKs still floating out there somewhere. Unless, as Steve suggests, new owners Google us and do some exploring here, I'm afraid there's not much we can do about it other than talk among ourselves and hope everyone else has some common sense.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/07/2013 08:22:03

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2013 : 10:30:35

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

I'll also opine that very few small cruisers other than the C-22 and C-25 have heavily ballasted "swing keels".

The O Day 22, the Chrysler 22 and I believe the US Yacht 22 were all built in significant numbers with ballasted swing keels. Catalina was certainly not the only manufacturer building them. "Back in the day" before the wing keel, the ballasted swing keel was often used on trailerable mini cruisers to give them shoal draft and make them easier to launch. Until a better design concept came along (i.e., the wing keel and water ballasted boat), it was generally regarded as a practical and safe design for a lake sailer/coastal cruiser. In its time, it wasn't a bad design for a trailerable sailboat. It's just that nobody had conceived of a significantly better design yet. It put the ballast deep down, and enabled the boat to stay on it's feet in a breeze.

Edited by - on

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2013 : 10:58:00

Its kind of funny going the other way. This forum was a big factor in my decision to buy a C25. You can't beat an involved user forum when trying to learn to maintain something. This is also why I love my 91 Miata.

Well, whatever may be said against the ballasted swing keel, I really like it. If I were to ever buy a larger boat, I would hope to get a Southerly for the same feature. Are you guys familiar with the Southerly boats? Their newer offerings have fairly robust steel keel trunks integrated into a steel grounding plate and steel frame. I wonder if their older and smaller designs had fiberglass keel trunks like our boats. I wonder how common fiberglass hull damage is on this sort of design.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2013 : 11:11:49

Remember the little windup toys that do back flips on the counter? I always wondered if a heavy enough swing keel could do that to a boat... LOL.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2013 : 09:40:04

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

The O Day 22, the Chrysler 22 and I believe the US Yacht 22 were all built in significant numbers with ballasted swing keels...

I know the Chrysler did, and I'm not familiar with the USY-22, but of all the O'Day "swingers" I've known, none had ballasted keels--just centerboards in ballasted stub keels. An exception was the 14' Javelin, which has a centerboard made of something on the order of 3/8" steel boilerplate. I wished I had that on my 17' O'Day Daysailer--its fiberglass board gave me fits, especially when it swelled up and jammed in the trunk one winter.

It seems like moving parts under water always have some sort of issues.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/08/2013 : 17:27:41

Dont forget the Ventures, Clippers and Early MacGreggors.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2013 : 18:20:52

quote:
Originally posted by pastmember

Dont forget the Ventures, Clippers and Early MacGreggors.

I had a Venture 24 with a swing keel back in 1972. The boat sailed fine. I sold it when we moved to California and bought a Cat 27 (#920) because it was simply not a strong enough boat IMHO to routinely sail out to the Channel islands off of Santa Barbara/Ventura/Oxnard when the wind and seas would kick up. Absolutely a great boat to trailer and sail on inland lakes however.

Chuck

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 12/08/2013 : 22:22:13

I felt the same way about my Clipper 21. Rig, launch, park the trailer in 20 minutes. Light, fast, and responsive, but I did break a cable in it once.. I bounced the keel off a dozen stumps in a shallow lake before I said that this is stupid. I hit about 3 more, one to many, on my way to the ramp. Interesting getting back on the trailer.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/09/2013 : 10:07:39

I always love the occasional thread "I've dropped my keel and I can't get it up", the solutions are wide ranging and ... brilliant.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/09/2013 : 10:35:33

Southcoast 22 was my swing keel... Fun sailboat.

<< but I did break a cable in it once. >>

The cable separated?

Edited by - redeye on 12/09/2013 10:37:09

CateP
Navigator

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USA
108 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2013 : 15:30:39

Oddly, I bought my new cable (and turning ball kit) from CD a few weeks before I received the PSA from CD. The PSA was actually very affirming because I looked at my cable and it looked fine to me, but knowing that it should be replaced very two years I plunked down the $123 for the kit. Now I just need to find somebody who knows how to attach the cable. I'm thinking it may be something I can do myself, but wary of attaching it to the winch properly.I am afraid I will run out of cable and it will break off from the winch. (yes I have a small amount of SK anxiety whenever we are out sail the big lake)

A last note... this forum has been an absolute god-send since I bought my 1983 C-25. So much so that I joined the Association again this year. Surprised more folks haven't joined.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2013 : 18:37:23

Like with most things taking it apart teaches you how to put it back together again. I found the two vice grips to be very helpful.

Edited by - on

BCG-Woodbury
Mainsheet Editor

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396 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2013 : 20:26:42

Hey Chuck -

I have a 1984 SK and just did the cable and winch rebuild last season. If you think it is important, I'll post CD's PSA in the Mainsheet. One of the things the PO told me was to change the cable every 3 years. $150 is cheap insurance. I tend to agree. For those that have a Swing Keel, it is part of owning the boat. Although I'm sure CD wants to sell kits, they are more interested in keeping Catalinas afloat for residual benefits.

Brian G.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2013 : 22:42:29

I'll just add that salt water raises the risk level--CD is probably leaning in that direction. And if they suggest a longer period, somebody complies, and their keel lets go...

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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Response Posted - 12/10/2013 : 09:40:10

Cate, Nice Burgee

Paul

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 12/10/2013 : 20:22:45

Red eye - yes, the cable broke. The cable was attached to the keel with as waged eye and a large stainless anchor shackle, 3/8 pin, that pinned through a hole in the keel. The cable was the weak link. You can only pick up and drop a keel so many times.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2013 : 20:37:45

quote:
Originally posted by BCG-Woodbury

Hey Chuck -

I have a 1984 SK and just did the cable and winch rebuild last season. If you think it is important, I'll post CD's PSA in the Mainsheet. One of the things the PO told me was to change the cable every 3 years. $150 is cheap insurance. I tend to agree. For those that have a Swing Keel, it is part of owning the boat. Although I'm sure CD wants to sell kits, they are more interested in keeping Catalinas afloat for residual benefits.

Brian G.

Hi Brian!

I originally posted the letter I got from CD because I did not see that info being posted on the listserver, and I thought it was a good idea to get the word out to any swing keel skippers that may not have received the CD letter (probably only went out to people that have purchased from CD). You never know who might be out there that is a new or relatively new owner of a swing keel and is not aware of the maintenance recommended for the cable because their PO did not pass on that info like yours did. I have no idea who might be a Mainsheet subscriber that is not a CD customer and is also not a listserver reader. There may be a lot or may be no one? More likely there are a lot more SK owners that are not a CD customer, not on the listserver, and not a Mainsheet Subscriber. Not much you can do if their PO's did not pass info on Mx along, and they do not sail with other owners that do know about the need for Mx, etc.

The importance would be in the eye of the beholder I guess. I generally err on the side of being conservative, and tend to pass on what I think is useful info, even if I suspect most folks already know about it. You never know who might have benefited from hearing something useful, and at worst is just a good reminder to the others. I think its a lot less hassle to learn from other folk's experiences whenever you can!

If you do decide to pass it on to the Mainsheet editors for the Cat 25 fleet, I do recommend including that this is not criticism of a well designed and built boat, but is simply recommended maintenance to keep her in good shape (just like you should do recurring and preventative maintenance in many other areas on any boat!)

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

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