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Right of Way

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9018 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/12/2012 : 11:03:57

There are some lessons worth revisiting in [url="http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/eline/collision0712.asp"]this article[/url] about a collision that, like all collisions, should not have happened. (It was apparently the old "shall we dance" syndrome.)

1. There is no "right of way" on the water (except for barge trains moving down-current on western rivers such as the Mississippi, and realistically, ships moving among recreational boats almost anywhere).

2. A sailboat under power--sails up or down--is a power boat under the rules.

3. If a collision occurs on the water, both parties are likely to be found at fault to some degree.

Of course, out on the water, the biggest problem is the people who don't know, forgot, or don't care about any of this.

Stay aware of what's all around you.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 07/12/2012 : 11:46:13

Do remember that the "stand on" vessel does have the requirement to stand on until the point where it is clearly no longer safe to do so. This is especially important under sail, where both boats are likely to turn downwind to avoid a collosion and will probably still collide. This almost happened to me on my Tuesday night race where I was the "give way" vessel and the "stand on" boat also made an evasive manuever that was close to ending badly.

The article is only talking about collisions during motoring. Hopefully few of us are motoring on a regular basis.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2012 : 11:59:48

Thanks for posting this article, I always like reading things like this to remind me of what I'm supposed to do out on the water. The area of Puget Sound where we sail is full of potential things to hit. Fortunately most of the people at the helm of the other potential targets are professionals and it's rare-ish to have an encounter unless you do something stupid. It's the guys on speed boats, PWC's, etc. that tend to be the problem, at least for me. Nevertheless, your head is on a constant swivel when you're out there, just trying to keep track of all of them. I really like coming up on another sailboat on my opposite tack, I've got a pretty good idea of what the boat's capable of, sailors seem to have a somewhat better sense of the rules (no snobbishness there, huh?), so I can relax somewhat, and enjoy watching another sailboat go by in reasonably close proximity.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/12/2012 : 12:30:51

I always enjoy reading Seaworthy articles, especially the ones about claims. They tend to be informative and interesting reading.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 07/12/2012 12:33:59

islander
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Response Posted - 07/12/2012 : 13:31:16

Your best offense is a good defense. Right of way or not. Slight adjustment of the tiller from far out and the other boat is no longer in the equation.

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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Response Posted - 07/12/2012 : 13:44:35

What is the definition of fishing vessel that you must give-way to? I have heard only commercial fishing vessels, while recreational powerboats with a line in the water seem to believe they have right-of-way over a boat under sail

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 07/12/2012 : 13:56:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 Your best offense is a good defense. Right of way or not. Slight adjustment of the tiller from far out and the other boat is no longer in the equation.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think it is a gross assumption on the quantity and quality of traffic to say that you can always adjust your course early (even when you are in the stand on duty).

If you are on starboard tack, have someone else to your starboard, and turn to port to avoid an oncoming port-tack vessel then you just made conditions more dangerous. You responded in the same way that the port vessel is supposed to (they should turn to their starboard, which is your port) and could cause a collision. Keeping your stand-on duty and allowing the give way vessel to respond would have been safer.

In low traffic situations I do agree with you, but I'm used to sailing on a small (~1x2 mile) lake with often 10-30 (up to maybe 100 during Tuesday night races) of sailing vessels (and a small number of motoring ones). If everyone tried to avoid everyone and didn't follow the rules it would probably result in increased collisions.

Edited by - awetmore on 07/12/2012 15:04:35

Voyager
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5241 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2012 : 21:50:40

Here are my simple rules:
Fishing vessels adrift (even powerboats) I steer clear of.
Actual fishing vessels - same thing.
I observe port vs starboard Right of Way for sailing vessels under sail and two sail boats on same tack, the leeward wins
While under power I go by powerboat rules even if I haven't doused my sails (I've seen a few motorsail cheaters out there).

Edited by - on

putzmeister
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Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 10:22:02

Excellent article . . . and I thought I went sailing to get away from all the technicalities of current everyday life

Edited by - putzmeister on 07/13/2012 10:22:39

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 10:46:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by putzmeister
 Excellent article . . . and I thought I went sailing to get away from all the technicalities of current everyday life

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The article seemed to point to a pretty simple root cause - operator inattention. Things get a lot simpler when you pay attention.

I'm still scratching my head over the actions of the little boat. It would seem that passing port-to-port is a pretty obvious action to take in the situation described. Why would he suddenly turn to port, directly into the other boat?

Whenever I encounter another vessel whose intentions are unclear, I do everything I can to make my intentions clear by making all course changes big enough to be seen from a distance. If we're headed straight at each other, I'll make sure that any turns I make are large enough for him to see the side of my boat, leaving no question which way I'm intending to go.

Maybe someday I'll encounter pea soup fog or other conditions that hamper visibility (or a total idiot who turns toward me every time I make an course change), but so far I've no had a problem with avoiding other vessels.

Edited by - on

putzmeister
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Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 12:56:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 Why would he suddenly turn to port, directly into the other boat?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Panic?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkqKpnU8sCE

Edited by - putzmeister on 07/13/2012 15:35:13

redviking
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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 21:04:53

"A few seconds before impact, the skipper of the larger boat, a 40-footer, throws the helm hard over to starboard and yells at the skipper of the smaller boat, who responds by turning sharply to port. The two boats collide, with the smaller boat ramping up onto the deck of the larger boat."

I'm going with small boats fault regardless of the obvious failures of the 40 footer Captain. SOP is wine to wine. Port to port when passing an opposing vessel. The 40 footer correctly turned to starboard. It's just common sense. When in doubt, veer to the right just like in a car. All shipping channels are set up this way.

sten

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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1218 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2012 : 05:49:04

Maybe the smaller boat was a Britt......

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9018 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2012 : 08:14:17

Yes, the article specifically involves a motoring situation, but it's more generally about watch-keeping and shared responsibilities under the rules--the "stand-on / give-way" conventions.

The error of the larger boat was letting the situation get to where it did--as Rick said, inattention. The smaller boat did make the wrong turn--maybe due to a momentary misinterpretation of what the big boat was going to do. They probably turned simultaneously at the last second, and that was that.

I, too, try to make my intentions obvious from a distance, pointing my bow off to starboard for an oncoming boat to see, making a relatively quick turn and then holding a straight course, or whatever... I am frequently annoyed by guys meandering toward me in a channel, slowly weaving along the wrong side.

Oh, and another thing, sailors: Even if you're under sail only, when you're overtaking my powerboat, the rules say you are the give-way (burdened) vessel--not me. This happens to me on the no-wake Mystic River where I need to stay at 5 knots (5.75 mph) or less, while sailboats are going however fast the wind takes them. It's a good idea in that situation to give me a toot--two to pass on my port side--so I realize you're going around and can hold my course as the rules require. I try to stay aware of what's behind me, but...........

"Fishing vessels" under the rules are commercial vessels with gear, such as nets, in the water--not pleasure boats with lines out or fishing trawlers just steaming along. However, the boaters with lines out generally don't understand that, so we might as well act accordingly. No point in arguing with a boat that has a half-empty beer cooler.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/14/2012 08:16:25

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2012 : 09:10:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 Maybe the smaller boat was a Britt......
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ouch!

When both lights you see ahead, turn to starboard and show your Red.

No matter which side of the pond you float your boat!

Paul

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9018 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2012 : 10:04:46

What would confuse me on the other side of the pond is "Green Right Returning."

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5241 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2012 : 20:17:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Stinkpotter: other side of the pond is "Green Right Returning."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave - it's only logical, seeing they are on the other side, isn't it just a mirror image?!?!?!

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 07/14/2012 : 21:47:33

This whole myth that "sailboats have right of way" is a dangerous oversimplification. First, the term "right of way" is outdated and inaccurate. In both automotive and marine vehicle operation, nobody has "right of way" under current laws. The ultimate goal is to avoid collisions, and "right of way" implies that you have a right that supersedes collision avoidance. I don't know exactly when the term "right of way" fell out of favor, but most of us who learned the term (and maybe some of us real old guys even remember seeing the words on the old yellow "Yield" signs) should realize that things change.

The distinction between "stand on vessel" and "give way vessel" imparts specific responsibilities, as pointed out already here.

You can accuse me of oversimplification, but I like to think of it as less maneuverable vessels always being the "stand on" vessel. If a recreational vessel purely under sail (no motor operating) encounters a similarly sized recreational motorboat, the motorboat is supposed to give way because his vessel is more readily maneuvered. Large commercial traffic cannot stop or take any evasive maneuvers, so all recreational traffic gives way to them. In between those two extremes are myriad possibilities, but the overall rule, as I like to think of it, is that the less maneuverable vessel is always the stand-on vessel. So, for instance, I will always give way to a 150 foot ferry boat, because I know the hazards to the passengers if that ferry boat has to make sudden evasive maneuvers.

Sailors who whine that they "always get the right of way" give the rest of us a bad name. There was actually an obnoxious woman on the bay a couple weeks ago who whined on VHF16 that a motorboat should slow down because "his wake might damage our rig." I did not see the circumstances, so maybe she was justified, but it also makes me wonder how seaworthy her boat was. FWIW, the USCG got on the radio and scolded them for bickering on the hailing/emergency channel.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 06:34:24

It's virtually a certainty that every time time I head out, I'll encounter a powerboater on a crossing course who'll alter course, going out of their way just to pass forward of me, sometimes at very close range, then turn again to resume their previous course. If they had kept their original straight line course, they would have passed harmlessly astern of me, but instead I've got to deal with a rig rattling, boat stopping, bow wave!

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redviking
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USA
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Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 06:45:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 It's virtually a certainty that every time time I head out, I'll encounter a powerboater on a crossing course who'll alter course, going out of their way just to pass forward of me, sometimes at very close range, then turn again to resume their previous course. If they had kept their original straight line course, they would have passed harmlessly astern of me, but instead I've got to deal with a rig rattling, boat stopping, bow wave!

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 08:29:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 It's virtually a certainty that every time time I head out, I'll encounter a powerboater on a crossing course who'll alter course, going out of their way just to pass forward of me, sometimes at very close range, then turn again to resume their previous course. If they had kept their original straight line course, they would have passed harmlessly astern of me, but instead I've got to deal with a rig rattling, boat stopping, bow wave!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've had two and three story pleasure craft cross my bow very close 30 plus miles offshore... Stinkpotters are a lonely bunch...

Sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not OUR Stinkpotter!

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9018 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 09:32:50

It might be that those "potters" crossing your bows were thinking you'd prefer to take their wake on the pointy end rather than the flat end, not being aware that waves can significantly affect the momentum of a sailboat.

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 13:52:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 It might be that those "potters" crossing your bows were thinking you'd prefer to take their wake on the pointy end...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nah, it's a power/ego/domination type thing.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9018 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 13:59:33

OK Don--you broke the code.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 18:40:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 It might be that those "potters" crossing your bows were thinking you'd prefer to take their wake on the pointy end...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nah, it's a power/ego/domination type thing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

They're just looking for boobies.

Everyone knows that a sailboat on autopilot with nobody around might provide a show...

sten

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Voyager
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Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 19:04:59

Let's hope those boobies to which you refer are those tropical birds we see in the Galapagos. After all, this is a family-rated forum.

Nonetheless you could have knocked me over with a feather on Saturday.

I was sailing about 2 miles offshore and way off in the distance I could see a boat heading right for me, plowing a pretty big wake.

As they approached rapidly, I noticed a cannon on the bow and the characteristic red stripes of a coast guard 30+ footer bearing right down on me. Once they noticed me a few hundred yards out, the helmsman turned their boat to port so that he could give me a wide berth astern of Passage.

As they passed, many of them waved and of course I reciprocated.

Restored my faith in mankind...

Edited by - Voyager on 07/15/2012 19:06:13

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