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SAIL article MOB

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/19/2002 : 16:56:16

Just picked up the mail and saw that SAIL had an article on MOB procedures. In the table of contents they state, "How should you return to overboard crew? Our on the water tests show the most efficient way."

I'd be interested in people's reaction to the article. I have read it yet will post my reaction as soon as I have.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 21:45:38

I read it--they do NOT find a "most efficient method"--they equivocate on each and leave you to choose between three, with no stated preference:
1. Quick Stop--tacking around and ending up going down-wind (??!!).
2. Figure 8--tacking, broad reaching, and then turning up-wind for the approach.
3. Modified Figure 8--falling off to a broad reach before tacking and then approaching up-wind (if I recall correctly--my Sail Mag is at home and I'm in Wisconsin).
(4. They mention and dismiss a jibe-circle.)

I've tried 2 and 3, but am confused about 1. I know somebody on this board uses 1 (or something like it), and would be interested in their reaction to the article. I can't understand a down-wind approach. They discussed variations for when you're on a down-wind course with a chute and pole, but I don't do that.

The whole approach issue is essentially ignored--i.e., what do you do when you actually get there?

Much of their data was gathered on a boat where they did planned, simulated MOBs... you know--ready, set, FLAG OVERBOARD! I don't believe that results from those tests mean much for people who aren't planning and signalling their intent to jump off. They also had about one sentence on getting the victim aboard--essentially saying nothing.

Net: I found the article next to worthless--nothing more than a few options on how to race to the victim's position--possibly running him or her over. What did you think?

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 11/19/2002 21:49:05

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 23:08:56

Dave - I pretty much agree with you regarding the inadequacy of the article. I believe that we discussed MOB's pretty exhaustively on this forum a while back (sorry - I don't have Don's encyclopedic cornucopia of URL's<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) My problem with the 2nd & 3rd methods that you list, is the length of time it can take to get back to the MOB. That's why personally I prefer the quickstop method - but you don't approach the victim downwind, you go a couple of boatlengths past him(her) and then go head to wind and (hopefully) coast to a stop alongside him. It definitely gets you back fastest and makes it easier to keep him in sight - not perhaps as essential on a relatively calm inland lake as it is in sizeable waves offshore. When I took my bareboat chartering course in '91, ASA made you learn the figure-8 method. Our captain taught us that and then told us he would teach us another, and in his opinion, better method - the Quickstop. I'd be very interested in what the others think.
Derek

Edited by - on

ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 23:28:09

In our ASA 101 course they taught us the modified figure 8 meathod, it worked well in Corpus Christi Bay with 3-4 ft seas, I think the quick stop meathod would be prefered IF and depending on if the MOB was to windward or Leeward. I would hate to drift away from a MOB, just something to think about and consider....the more I hash it about the safer my crew becomes!,
Steve

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 01:09:09

Here you go, Derek.
http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1560

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Lake Erie

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 10:07:01

Hi,

I was taught the figure 8 method while a crew member keeps an eye on the MOB. This lesson was taught on Lightnings at Lake Chautauqua, NY when I was a kid. As you all know, a Lightning is a lot smaller and lighter than a C-25.

A few years ago I was introduced to the quick stop method.

Immediately toss a throwable device to the MOB as well.

As I recall, you do the figure 8 so as to tack and return upwind. as you aproach the MOB luff up into the wind and let the boat glide to him. Throw a line to him and remain in irons while bringing him aboard.

It sounds good on paper. I believe, in reality it would be very stressful. Especially if the MOB was unconcious!

I think it would be a good idea to practice the maneuver.

Thanks for bringing this topic up. I will remember to practice when I get my new boat.

P

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 10:42:12

Thanks Don - I figure that you must have at least a 100G hard drive<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 10:54:44

I just read the article Modern Man Overboard Tactics: BOATHANDLING. This appears to be the first of two articles appearing in SAIL dealing with MOB situations. The intent of this article was to get the MOB and the boat back together and in it SAIL staff reviewed three methods to turn around and get back for upwind MOB situations and one method for down wind situations.

As I read the posting on MOB from this past July (thanks Don for the link <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>) each of the three basic upwind methods were discussed as well as a jibe method which was the way I learned to do MOB when I sailed Comets and how I learned to pick up a bouy when fiorst learning to sail. It seemed to us that the "best" method is the one that works for us, and works in effeciently and safely in retrieving the MOB. SAIL states, "In the real world, the best technique to use will vary from boat to boat and from crew to crew." (p47) and ". . . the best way to handle a boat in such circumstances is not widely agreed upon." (p43). Why? What works
best for one boat/crew gets the MOB back on board quickly and safely, and what works for me might not work for you. I think SAIL saw the c25 reality (as expressed in July thread) as being a correct assessment of MOB situations. (Good job Admirals and Skippers and Deckhands and Newbies <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>!

SAIL's study of upwind situations consisted of only ". . . a dozen or so drills . . .." (p43) and from this they conclude that that they saw no ". . . wide difference between the two techniques . . .." (p43) However, their very best time for the quick-stop method was nearly half of their best time for the Figure 8 method. IMHO that is significant and seems consistant (without any analysis) with the Navy Cadet study.

Perhaps one issue for each of to resolve is our comfort level returning to MOB upwind or downwind. That may the issue that decides which method is best for each of us.

SAIL acknowledged that practice drills, when the crew expected an MOB drill were easier than real life, and of course returning to a pick-up flag four feet high is a lot easier than returning to a bobbing head!

One other thing that both SAIL and the c25 July posters stressed was the absolute necessity to practice and be ready when faced with a real MOB. Suspect osmepneo will do some MOB drills this coming summer.

Oh, one other thing that's important is to quickly assign a spotter to keep their eyes on the MOB. C25 posters commented an that I don't think it was stressed, if even mentioned by SAIL.

I appreciate the wisdom that everyone shares on this web site, for the life of me I'll never figure out why I took a vacation and left the forums for so long. but I'm glad to be back <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>!

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - osmepneo on 11/20/2002 11:02:14

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cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 15:55:53

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Oh, one other thing that's important is to quickly assign a spotter to keep their eyes on the MOB. C25 posters commented an that I don't think it was stressed, if even mentioned by SAIL.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Since usually Dan & I sail together without anyone else the spotter issue is my biggest concern. We've done drills together on anything that falls overboard & once last year with a floating swim ladder we saw on our last sail. We also have done drills where one throws a milk jug over & the other has to go get it alone. I admit to having problems handing the boat AND keeping an eye on the jug. I do worry about whether I could really handle the situation if Dan fell overboard - expecially if there were 4 ft seas &/or bad weather to complicate things. There's a HUGE difference between doing a man overboard recovery with 2 people still on board & with only a single person left on board!

Cathy
"Blown Away"
'97 C250WK #253

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 18:11:54

Cathy....you are right. While I've never done MOB drills... I sail often alone and have retreived a few things that went over board...mostly hats and can atest to the difficulty of one person keeping an eye and handling the boat.

I think ideally the MOB should lend help in being located...perhaps at the minimum... a whistle should be part of your life vest. A whistle is cheap and easy for the MOB to use. Perhaps there should be some signaling involved with its use... rapid tutes perhaps signalling that person aboard is making a turn which will bring them to a course for the MOB...then a long blast when that course is reached.

Another idea is one of the LED head lights that back packers use. These would fit in a pocket of the life jacket and are bright and lite. They would allow the MOB to use both hands to swim while wearing the light on the head. I have one of these on my Christmas wish list.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

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MarkTM
Navigator

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USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 18:19:17

Arlyn,

Although I don't use if for MOB purposes, I love my LED headlight; I use it all the time when onboard after dark. It was one of my Christmas gifts last year.

I find it most useful when arriving at the boat after sundown. Nothing worse than gagging on a small flashlight while trying to dial in the correct numbers on the combination lock.

REI has a great selection of LED headlights . . . of course, they are very proud of them <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>$$$$

Mark Melchior
C250wb "Lorelei" #384
[url="http://www.texassailor.com/"]<img src="http://www.texassailor.com/texas.gif " border=0>[/url]
(click flag to visit Central Texas Sailor)

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 20:39:53

Cathy,

Char and I are often the body count on board osmepneo, and if one of went over board, it would be difficult to come back to the MOB. I'm thinking that one advantage of the quick-stop method is that sail handling may be simplified, as you backwind the jib. Basically coming about into irons. I'm sure that for Char this would simplify the operation.

Arlyn's whistle suggestion is also helpful. Not only relying on our eyes to help find the MOB, but also our ears. That should help know where to look.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 23:41:03

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I don't like to have the motor running when there is a person in the water, whether it is in gear or not. If there is a mechanical malfunction or someone bumps the gear shift accidentally (which could happen in the excitement and confusion of a MOB situation), the result could be disastrous. Also, if you execute the MOB maneuver correctly, you won't need the motor. If you fool around lowering the motor mount and starting the motor, the distraction could significantly interfere with your ability to execute the MOB maneuver correctly.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
This statement by Steve Milby on the previous thread certainly makes one think about starting an engine to solve the MOB problem,
Steve Steakley

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