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Damage to Foredeck

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Catbird
Deckhand

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20 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/29/2006 : 15:49:23

My boat was damaged at a marina when it was being lifted off jacks by a travel lift. I was not present when the accident happened. I was told that a jack slipped as the boat was being lifted, the boat rocked forward on the slings, and the "mast" (or rigging, maybe) hit the travel lift. The impact tore the forestay/furler, the mounting hardware, and a piece of the foredeck deck off the boat. I'd appreciate any knowledgeable comments on what it will take to return the boat to seaworthy condition. For example, will special tools and special knowledge be required? Can any boatyard do this work? For that matter, is it repairable? The boat is an '83 wing keel. (Side note: the bow light on the pulpit was bent in 90 degrees when I inspected the boat. I don't know if this occurred at the same time.) Photos follow. Thanks very much for any information you can provide.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2006 : 16:08:38

Ouch.. that's very serious damage in a critical area and will require fully competent, professional repair.

I don't know the capabilities of your boatyard, so I can't speak to that issue. Be sure to have the rest of the boat and rigging thoroughly inspected for other damage.

When the repair is made, the forestay attachment should be replaced with the newer, upgraded Catallina Direct part that has a stem tang for extra reinforcement.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2006 : 17:02:05

Arggghhh!
Who is gonna pay for that mess up?

First thing I would do is get the stick down, but would wonder if the boat insurer would ask to leave everything as it is before inspection.

Paul

Edited by - on

Champipple
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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2006 : 19:25:18

Not only should someone competant do the repair, the yard should pay for it...

You really need a fiberglass repair company. Where are you located?

Edited by - on

Catbird
Deckhand

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20 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2006 : 20:25:29

I do not think there will be an issue about who will pay for the repairs. And, I have proper insurance if needed. What I don't know is where to get this kind of work done and what to expect. The boat is in the Washington, DC area.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2006 : 08:53:33

Any repair plan definitely needs to incorporate the new style tanged forestay stemhead fitting that transfers some of the forces directly to the hull as well as the foredeck, but I don't believe even this improved fitting is designed to accept all the headstay tension through the tang.

Sorry to say, but due to the critical area of the deck and extent and nature of the structural damage, I might consider the boat "totaled" since the cost of a fully acceptable repair may be in excess of the boats market value. The insurance company may agree or disagree, but you should try to make sure that you are the one who determines what is or isn't a fully acceptable, safe, and seaworthy structural repair.

It's likely you'll need an independent, highly competent, professional surveyor to help you make that determination, as well as to discover whether or not there is other "hidden" structural damage since the entire rigging system clearly took a beating in that accident.

Frankly if it were my boat, and I do love her dearly and far beyond her actual market value, I'd mitigate for a fair settlement that includes totalling the boat, since I believe that her cash value doesn't approach the cost of what I would consider the complete and seaworthy repair that you need.

Good luck and please let us know how this is resolved.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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1889 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2006 : 13:18:07

I would not rush to declare the boat a total loss. For one thing, it would take a heck of a repair estimate to total an '83 wing keel.

I Have done some work in that area of the hull of my 1979 C-25. I replaced deck core, upgraded stem fitting, added fiberglass to reinforce and seal anchor locker, enlarged locker drain, sealed & rewired whale-eye lights, repaired deck from torn out pulpit stanchions, added backing to bow cleats, and installed a larger bow eye. I agree it's a challenging area to work in because of the tight spaces, and concentrated forces.

One technique you (or whoever does the repair) might consider borrowing from the auto body business, is sectioning. Find a C-25 wreck being parted out with the same style deck. (The deck mold was changed at least once over the long C-25 production run.) Cut the foredeck off the junk boat and yours at a point further back from the bow, where there's more room to work and the stresses are less concentrated. This makes it much easier to affect an original or greater strength repair. Right off the top of my head, I'd think about making the cut in the anchor locker opening, aft of the mid-point. Of course, specify the donor boat be cut all the way at the aft of the anchor locker, and don't cut your boat until the recycled deck section is in your hands!

While the foredeck is off of the hull being repaired, take advantage of the opportunity to repair any damage to the hull at the deck seam and stem areas, and strengthen as needed. This would also be a golden opportunity to glass in the anchor locker pan to prevent water in the locker from getting below decks. And take a look at the I.D. of the anchor locker drain while it's so accessable.

The repair would need to be 'scarfed' over a distance of several inches for strength. for those unfamiliar with the technique, a taper would be ground on top of the cutoff point on the deck being repaired. A matching taper is then ground on the bottom of the salvaged repair section. In other words, if the scarf overlap is to be 4", then the repaired boat is cut at least 4" ahead of where the donor boat was cut. Both parts (your deck and savaged one) are ground slightly to a good bonding surface for a few inches in both directions from the cut. Next, the repair section is installed with thickened epoxy and fiberglass mat as filler in between the tapered faying surfaces, and polyurithane adhesive at the hull-deck joint, along with fasteners equivalent to original construction. Then unidirectional fiberglass is added to the underside of the repair joint for stiffness and strength. The top of the repair is then ground down maybe 1/8" or so. Several laminations of medium light cloth are added to the top to add contiguous fiber above the seam, and to discourage later gelcoat cracking. Once cured, this visible area is carefully ground and block sanded to original shape. Then matching gelcoat is applied to restore the cosmetic appearance of the repair, and to protect the epoxy from ultraviolet radiation.

The rub rail will also have to be cut at a point just aft of the repair seam, and reinstalled after the fiberglass has been repaired. Be sure you get the section of rubrail cut off the donor boat along with the foredeck. Sectioning aluminum rubrail is a very common and accepted procedure. If you're carefull about prying out the forward several feet of your flexible rubrail insert without cutting it, it can probably be put back in the repaired rail in one piece. (Tie the loose insert back on deck during repairs.)

Consider spreading the forestay load further down the stem (part of why the original accident opened the foredeck like Tupperware). The factory retrofit C-25 stem fitting w/anchor roller has a tang which extends maybe 8" to 10" down the stem, almost to the locker drain. With the foredeck off, the inside of that area can be heavily reinforced with roving and epoxy.

Anyway, those are some thoughts off the top of my head. I suggest you collect lots of independent opinions from experienced boat technicians before choosing a final course of action.

Maintain a fearless, optimistic attitude, and good luck!

-- Leon Sisson

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britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2006 : 14:06:08

I'm curious now there has been time to think about it.
Have you had chance to examine the jib stay/furler stay yet? You should be able to see where the impact occurred.

Was there any damage to the cabin top, there must have been forces applied.. if the mast was hit, then the turning point (the mast step) would have experienced a backwards force (pressing down aft of the step and lifting up at the front of the step.)

If the stay was hit, then the force at the turning point would be up aft of the mast step and down forward of the mast step.

Were the shrouds strained? On a 250 the shrounds are aft of the mast but on the 25 I think they are level with the mast.

Was the back stay pulled?

I would consider replacing all the standing rigging as it must have experienced some stress beyond normal sailing loads.

Glad it wasn't our boat, to say the least I'd be up all night thinking about it.

Paul.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2006 : 18:57:11

total it, buy a new boat. There are too many nice boats out there to screw with that.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2006 : 20:34:53

I don't really know what to suggest but also being from the Washington, DC area and having gone over to your marina for a Tuesday Pressure Wash special (I can tell the marina from the photos), I certainly can sympathise with what you are and have to go thru at this stage. In our area north of the Wilson Bridge, there are just no real repair yards. The Chesapeake/Annapolis area is probably one area that could even entertain doing this type of work and has the experience to work on sailboats. it is not the type that if it even can be repaired, should be given to one of the independents that visits the marinas. Just feel it is too involved for them. I am not sure how far you have to go down the Potomac River to get to yards that do repairs. Possibly Colonial Beach which is way past Quantico. But that is probably one area to check since they do have a number of marinas and believe some of them are repair yards.

I would call your insurance company and find out what services they know of in the area and also if they can have someone look at it and advise what they would do in this situation...even if your marina picks up the tab.

Edited by - on

boatgt
Navigator

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117 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2006 : 22:12:20

Hello,
If you do decide to fix it like Leon suggested let me know. I have a 1982 SK parts boat I can cut the nose off of for you.

Gene

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2006 : 05:40:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 total it, buy a new boat. There are too many nice boats out there to screw with that.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank,

I'm inclined to agree with you. If this was my boat I'd certainly lean in that direction because I believe a vector analysis of the forces involved in causing the sort of damage displayed in the photos would show that the strain has probably taken its toll on the complete rigging system, especially the forward chainplates and the bulkheads.

The entire forward hull - deck joint would also be suspect as well.

Can the boat be "repaired" given unlimited resources?

Probably; and there are those who like the "challange" of proving that "anything" can be done, but really, what's the market value of an '83 Catalina 25, and what's it worth to sail a vessel you can never be really sure of?

You hit the nail on the head; there are certainly plently of nice boats out there without getting bogged down with a project vessel that needs extensive, expert repair by craftsmen who will be hard to find, not counting the fact that it will be hard to trust that vessels seaworthyness in the future.

I would opt to try to get the boat totaled for insurance purposes which would probably get me back in the water sooner rather than later, in a boat I could trust.

On a Swan, I'd shoot for a new deck, on a C-25, I'd opt for another boat.

Edited by - oldsalt on 05/01/2006 05:43:10

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2006 : 10:30:34

From the pictures, I can see that you're at the Washington Sailing Marina, which is where I have my boat. I would NOT characterize them as a competent, professional, trustworthy marina. They damaged my boat too, taking it out of the water. Repairs were half-assed.

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Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2006 : 10:44:26

Ouch. What a shame just as summer sailing season starts.

One of the "captains" in our marina plowed into a bridge piling head-on which resulted in damage that looked a lot like yours but with the front rub rail and all the fiberglass also torn away. A very competent fiberglass guy was able to get it looking like new again and all the hardware was re-attached successfully. So, it can be done. However, the question of strain on the mast step and chainplates is probably a great deal worse in your case since yours seems to have been pulled up instead of just pushed back.

Of course, the boat in our marina hasn't sailed since the "incident" and the repairs so who knows whether it won't all fall into the sea the first time he unfurls the jib.

Steve

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2006 : 11:55:18

Heads Up Info !!

I found out who the marina is thinking about giving the work to fix the boat - at least one option. The boat guy that is working on my mast ! The marina has already talked to him to get an estimate and the marina has to decide if they will let their insurance handle this whole deal. anyway, the boat guy would like to get a hold of you to discuss possibilities - he apparently has a bunch of sailboats that he owns and has 2 catalina 27s that the marina may be interested in making a deal moving you up to a catalina 27 but not sure if that is even a possibility. He said he already talked to catalina about the damage and thought is that at least 2 feet of the deck would be removed, replaced and then reinforced. he ahs not looked over your boat thoroughly but believe he indicated he was going to in the next day or so...after he gets done with my mast which should be tonight and then raised tomorrow morning.

I was just discussing my boat with him and casually mentioned if he heard about the catalina in the other marina and he then told me about his potential involvement. It was all preliminary info - gathering the facts, then talking to the marina and then to the owner....but now you heard it as I heard it 5 minutes ago !

I checked for your name but your profile does not have it - he wanted to talk to you. guess he could get your name and phone number from the marina unless they want to keep you guys separated for now.

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2006 : 12:49:21

If the guy who lost his hand in the accident is still looking for it, it's laying on the deck just aft of the damage. You can still see it in the bottom picture.

Steve

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Catbird
Deckhand

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20 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2006 : 18:59:59

Many thanks to all for the observations, suggestions, and dare I say, condolences. As to the hand in the photo - it's a spare deck hand.
OLarryO - My email address is djhadary@yahoo.com. Please pass it along to the fellow who is working on your boat.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2006 : 20:09:50

"deck hand" funny

Glad you can keep a sense of humor during this trying time.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 05/01/2006 20:11:56

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2006 : 23:17:22

Love the hand !

David - Received your EMail and forwarded a response to you. I will also pass your EMail address to the boat guy.

You know...I was checking when you last responded to this posting and it was way back as your original posting. Thought maybe there was something to do about the missing hand. Kind of reminded me of the Wendy's "finger" story. LOL

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2006 : 23:40:26

I am no glass expert but have an idea that may save you a lot of money and save the season.

The boat failed at a known weakness. That is why the newer boats have the tang that ties to the hull. If it were me, I would "CONSIDER" having the front glassed back together, and having a stainless stem fitting made that would go a few inches aft of the present damage and a large tang to drop down the bow a foot ot so. You could tack a bow roller on the new stem fitting while you were at it.

The rig would need a serious look. Especially the truck and backstay.

I would hate to think this would total one of our solid little cruisers. In the end it is up to you, so make sure you are happy with the outcome.

Tom.

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Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2006 : 09:36:25

The 1983 C-25 I bought this past fall had the furler rip out of the foredeck in a storm. The repair was made by the PO pictured below. He said the furler is now more secure than it was orginally. I am not sure exactly what they did, but you can see new hardware in this picture. They did the fiberglass work too. Solid job. Not too expensive. I had the boat surveyed by a reputable marine surveyor before I bought it and he said they did an excellent job.

http://homepage.mac.com/poolec/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2006-04-15%2006.09.57%20-0700/Image-4E67D8D9CC7F11DA.jpg

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Catbird
Deckhand

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20 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2006 : 19:51:09

It appears that my insurance company is going to total the boat. I'll post the details as soon as I have them.

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pjeffarch
Navigator

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USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2006 : 19:54:11

Can I have your furler?

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2006 : 21:50:54

Congratulations, spend the money well.

Edited by - on

ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2006 : 21:53:04

When an insurance company totals a boat does that mean they pay the owner and he can do what he wants with the boat?
If the damage is only to the foredeck that would be a great deal.I'm no expert but I would not hesitate for a minute to make that repair to my own boat.I would guess a few hundred dollars in epoxy,fabric,plywood and stainless hardware would repair that damage stronger than original.
I will admit that I may be more attatched to my boat than is really healthy

Edited by - ct95949 on 05/10/2006 21:58:22

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2006 : 22:18:56

When the insurance company totals a boat it becomes theirs. Once you are handed the cheque you are not even allowed back on board - so if you have anything that you want to keep from the boat I suggest that you get it off NOW!
Derek

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