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JanS48
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141 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/18/2015 : 18:29:18

Greetings all.
I'm still getting used the C25, it's a STD Rig with a 135 jenny, I'm getting my best speed (with about a 15k wind) on a beam reach or going slightly more into the wind - I can consistently get it to about 6.3 knots (sometimes more) according to my Raymarine chart plotter (honestly don't know how accurate it is), anyway - when I go on a broad reach I drop to in the 4's and the headsail isn't filling correctly. I've observed other similar boats where I see the main pulled in letting the jib catch the wind - tried that and many combination without much success. What am I doing wrong?
Going dead down-wind wing on wing with a pole is just Ok at about 5.5k's.

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 08/18/2015 : 19:13:03

It's normal for the speed to drop when you go from a beam to a broad reach. A broad reach is a slower point of sail. On any point of sail forward of a beam reach, you're getting maximum aerodynamic flow across the sails. As you bear off to a broad reach, the wind is coming more from astern, and it's simply pushing the boat downwind, instead of having the dual effect of pushing on one side of the sail and pulling on the other.

You don't say how the jib is misbehaving, but I'll guess that it is getting blanketed behind the mainsail. The cause is that you are sailing too deep downwind to be able to keep both sails full and driving. When you are sailing so deep downwind that the jib is being blanketed by the mainsail, then you have to bring one sail (usually the jib) over to the other side of the boat and sail wing and wing. By doing that, you move the jib out into clear air, where it can fill and drive the boat.

When you are sailing wing and wing, the jib might misbehave in another way. Often it will alternately fill, and then collapse and re-fill with a loud crack. That is caused by the wind overflowing the jib and spilling out the outboard side of the sail (the leech). When it overflows the sail, it stays attached to the backside of the sail, and exerts pressure on the backside of the sail, causing it to lift. When that side of the sail lifts, the sail collapses. After a few seconds, the wind re-fills the sail and it opens with a loud crack.

Think of the sail as if it is a bowl of water sitting on your kitchen counter. If you fill it with water until it overflows, the water doesn't just run off the rim of the bowl. It remains attached to the outside surface of the bowl and runs down onto the countertop. Air is a type of fluid, and it behaves the same way when it overflows your sail.

The way you stop the jib from alternately collapsing and re-filling and then collapsing again is by preventing the excess overflow of air from flowing off the outboard side of the sail. You can do that by trimming the jib aft a little more, so that the excess air flows off the luff of the sail, instead of off the leech.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/18/2015 19:15:55

Voyager
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5231 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2015 : 19:20:20

There's a great article in the current Mainsheet about sail handling and angle of attack. It's a fine art. Read up and get out on the water to test it out. This weekend I was in 12kt breezes and tacked up doing no more than ~4kts.
When I sailed back on a broad reach I found I was doing in excess of 5kts without excessive heeling with the apparent wind at 120� and the sheets eased quite a bit more than expected.
Every boat's mast rake is a little different so look at that too.
I noticed I had a bit of moss on my bottom so I brushed it off as best I could.
That makes a difference in the way she handles as well.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stu Jackson C34
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Response Posted - 08/21/2015 : 09:50:04

You might want to investigate the POLARS. Beam reach on almost any monohull is always the fastest point of sail.

Stu
1986 C34 #224 "Aquavite"
Cowichan Bay, BC Maple Bay Marina
(formerly San Francisco)
(formerly C25 #2459 "Capricorn Two")

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2015 : 14:46:03

I don't think anyone has found a polar chart for the C-25... For accuracy, there might have to be six of them--the swing and wing keels might be noticeably different, with the fin somewhere between. And then there's standard and tall... But a polars for any middle-weight cruiser in the 23-27' range is probably instructive.

I recall concluding that in a good breeze (12+), my SR/FK was fastest just slightly past a beam reach toward a broad reach, but that may have been due to the effect of stern quartering seas. I eased both sheets more than one might do intuitively. On that point of sail, I think that leads to more of the aerodynamics Steve refers to.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Voyager
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Response Posted - 08/22/2015 : 09:34:17

Agreed Dave. That was my findings on the same boat.
About POLARS? If done heuristically, how do you control for wind speed, sea state, sail angle and sail shape? Wouldn't it be an average at best?
E.g.: given a 10kt breeze that just piped up versus a 10kt easterly in day 3 of the weather pattern, the difference in sea state would be night vs day. Baggy sails are different than tight ones. With 6 different Catalina 25s, plus the 250s and Capris, I guess the testing is done in optimal conditions and averaged somehow?
Best bet is this: try it all out with your boat carefully noting conditions. Then after awhile you'll know what works and what doesn't.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2015 : 19:46:22

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

...Baggy sails are different than tight ones...

...and no manufacturer tests or sells his boat with baggy sails.

Regarding sea state, I suspect polar charts are derived from other than ocean conditions, taking sea-state out of the equation and measuring the boat's potential performance that might be affected by other conditions in the real world. Lake Winnebago is not like Lake Michigan is not like Buzzard's Bay is not like the North Atlantic...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/22/2015 20:11:57

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 08/25/2015 : 06:36:07

I just came across a discussion on sailnet that, IMO, settles the question of whether it's faster to broad reach downwind, or to run DDW. Here it is:

"On a displacement cruising boat, the quickest way to travel from point A to point B is still a straight line. Cruisers sometimes get caught up in sailing gybing angles, thinking the extra speed will make up for the extra distance sailed. It�s (usually) not the case.

Magnus Olsson, the legendary Volvo Ocean Race sailor, crewed aboard a Baltic 64 in last year�s ARC rally. I met him in Stockholm, Sweden, in August and he explained to me the vast difference between cruising and racing boats.

�A boat like Triumph, that is so heavy, it doesn�t pay to come up 20 or 30 degrees from dead downwind,� Magnus Olsson explained. A difference of 30 degrees true wind on a Volvo 70 is incredible in a breeze. �It�s eight knots!� Olsson exclaimed. The Volvo 70s will sail 20 knots at 150 true, and drop to 12 knots dead downwind. �By heading up 30 degrees, you get so much more speed! Which doesn�t ever happen on cruising boats.�

�It does not pay because you don�t get faster,� he continued. �So a typical cruising boat in 20 knots of wind, you always sail, if you want to go fast, VMG downwind. You go very close to dead downwind.�

-excerpted from Downwind voyaging - Ocean Navigator - January/February 2013

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/25/2015 06:38:14

NautiC25
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Response Posted - 08/25/2015 : 10:31:23

I would agree with that, cruising boats only. This is probably due to not planing and also having a wide berth.

While racing on a Cal 24, we have found that there is much more speed to be had in displacing your weight bow or stern while heading DDW. This is apparently different on many cruising boats as our competition likes to put all their weight forward and some balanced. While we have found that getting all our crew to the stern and raising the bow has yielded a knot or more. It was significant and we've passed up boats with much better ratings doing so.

1989 C-25 TR/WK #5894
Miss Behavin'
Sittin' in LCYC on Canyon Lake, Texas

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/25/2015 : 10:44:26

Going DDW (not racing, and with no spinnaker), we liked to do a couple of broad reaches just to feel some breeze and so it seemed like we were sailing. One controlled jibe and we were headed home.

Years ago I crewed on an Ensign (one-design) that tried reaching on the downwind leg, and it didn't work. But after a couple of other mistakes he was desperate!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/25/2015 10:47:27

cshaw
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Response Posted - 08/25/2015 : 11:30:28

Good thoughts on DDW vs tacking downwind.

I have found there are no "fixed rules" for that decision that always work due to so many variables (wind speed?, shifts anticipated? wave action and direction?, how much moveable weight aboard? sails being used, nearby boats to contend with, etc. etc. etc.)

So, I let Confetti tell me what she likes on that particular day.... I baseline a VMG (velocity made good along the rhumb line) going DDW (assuming the rhumb line is at or near DDW). Then sail up say 5 or 10 deg from the initially measured course, trim the sails, and watch VMG as we move weight fore and aft. Then come up a few more degrees and re-measure. Then sail the course that gives the best VMG. I tend to be pretty conservative and before I get tooooo far from the rhumb line I gybe back to sail at the same angle from the rhumb line but on the other tack. We experiment a bit with varying a bit in course to double check the VMG all the time since Confetti's speed thru the water is slightly different on the opposite tacks (no real clue why).

If the wind changes at all, we repeat feeling for what gives us the best VMG.

Not only does all this keep us from getting too bored on a DDW leg, it generally allows us to pick up boat lengths on many folks that tend to simply hold a steady course. Doesn't always work, but at least for me it works more than it doesn't...

Cheers!

Chuck

Chuck Shaw
Confetti
Cat 25, hull#1
1976 FK/TR

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 08/25/2015 : 14:25:38

I always avoided sailing DDW like the plague! I kept the wind over the corner of the transom and sailed a deep broad reach. Any minor wind shift was taken care of by rotating the sail plan. A larger shift caused a slight course change. Using this technique I won more races than anyone has a right to!
I always taught that going downwind is not the time to eat lunch - it's the time you eat everyone else's lunch!
One time my foredeck guy dropped the whisker pole overboard and we had 2 more downwind legs to run. I used the above technique, sailing the angles, and every time we crossed the fleet all sailing DDW we were further ahead.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/25/2015 : 15:20:28

Chuck, I read a discussion years ago on using VMG, where they put the waypoint on the rhumb line maybe 10 miles past the actual destination (down-wind mark). The idea was to keep the angles to the waypoint from distorting the VMG as you get closer to the mark and wider from the line. Do you do something like that?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 08/25/2015 : 15:57:11

We've had this discussion before, Derek, and my experience has been the same as Magnus Olssen. A broad reach in a displacement boat with jib and mainsail is deathly slow, and it adds greatly to the distance sailed when your objective is to get DDW. A beam reach doesn't get you downwind. You sail perpendicular to the wind. The higher you reach from DDW, the farther you must sail to get downwind.

In steady winds, I always sail downwind wing and wing, either DDW or a little by the lee. In gusts and lulls, if I'm sailing a slow broad reach to the next mark, I'll broad reach in the lulls and sail wing and wing in the gusts. By doing so, you get farther downwind faster, and when you turn back onto a reach, you're reaching at a much hotter angle. I only broad reach downwind in very light air, when the wind is so light that it's the only way I can keep the boat moving.

When racing downwind, boat speed means very little. What matters is, how can you get DDW to the next mark in the shortest amount of time. A sailboat race is a race to sail from start to finish in the least amount of time.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/25/2015 : 19:44:56

If only we could have gotten Confetti, This Side Up, and Steve's C-25 on the course together! I might have traveled there just to watch.

...except Confetti (hull #001) is the only one left we know about.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/25/2015 19:47:26

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 08/25/2015 : 20:02:36

Steve, I was always wing-on-wing going downwind. I don't know about other C25's, but TSU was very slow DDW but got nice and lively when sailed as above. Remember that I had a 155% genoa built to the last millimeter of Class Rules. Several times I had a J22 in another fleet round the weather mark jst behind me - and flying his chute it took most of a one mile downwind leg for him to pass me. My method worked really well for TSU and my crew. I don't know how successful slower C25's would be using it - but it wouldn't hurt for someone to find out.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 08/26/2015 : 09:58:36

"If only we could have gotten Confetti, This Side Up, and Steve's C-25 on the course together"
Dave, that was a "consecration devoutly to be wished" to quote Bill S.
Unfortunately we can only dream about what might have been...but one thing's for sure - it would have been a hell of a lot of fun for everyone.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 08/27/2015 : 06:04:35

One of the best analyses of the subject I have seen was made by Yachting Monthly magazine, which can be found here. http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/which-is-the-best-way-to-sail-downwind-31806

They compared three Farr-designed Beneteau 40s sailing downwind (PHRF rating 27). One used a symmetrical spinnaker, one used an assym, and one sailed downwind using white sails and a whisker pole. Summarized, they found that the boat with white sails made the best time by running DDW, as opposed to sailing the angles.

They discussed their conclusions with Luke Shingledecker, a designer for Farr, and his opinion was: "The best progress downwind is often achieved by sailing the angles because the apparent wind speed is greater, and the apparent wind angle is closer to a reach, where the sails can generate lift and are more efficient. Dead downwind, the sails just catch wind. Sailing higher increases boatspeed enough to overcome the extra distance sailed. In stronger winds, the loss of apparent wind speed is a much smaller portion of the total windspeed so the best progress downwind occurs at deeper angles."

So, Yachting Monthly's experiments concluded that DDW was superior to sailing the angles. Farr's expert concluded the opposite. So, you have support for Derek's opinion, and support for mine. Derek won a lot of races his way, and I won a lot my way.

But, I think there's another consideration to be made here. I have crewed extensively on a Beneteau First 40, trimming the mainsail, which is the principal driving sail on the fractional rig boat. With it's PHRF rating of only 27, the Bene has an extremely easily driven hull. In light air, it accelerates easily on the slightest increase in apparent wind, so, if any boat can benefit by sailing the angles downwind, the Bene would be a likely candidate. The Catalina 25 Tall rig, by comparison, is PHRF rated at 222. It isn't nearly as easily driven as the Bene, and is far less likely to accelerate on a zephyr by sailing the angles.

So, I stand by my opinion and Derek stands by his, and both of us have good reasons for doing so. The bottom line is that there's no definitive answer to the question. My suggestion is, try it both ways and use the technique that works best for you.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

dasreboot
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Response Posted - 08/27/2015 : 06:27:13

if the winds are very light, the only way youll get anywhere is by coming up a bit. of course it depends n a lot of factors. I think mostly everyone is correct. on our boats you dont get that much advantage by reaching when going downwind.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

DavidBuoy
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Response Posted - 09/02/2015 : 11:57:51

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

One of the best analyses of the subject I have seen was made by Yachting Monthly magazine, which can be found here. http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/which-is-the-best-way-to-sail-downwind-31806

They compared three Farr-designed Beneteau 40s sailing downwind (PHRF rating 27). One used a symmetrical spinnaker, one used an assym, and one sailed downwind using white sails and a whisker pole. Summarized, they found that the boat with white sails made the best time by running DDW, as opposed to sailing the angles.

They discussed their conclusions with Luke Shingledecker, a designer for Farr, and his opinion was: "The best progress downwind is often achieved by sailing the angles because the apparent wind speed is greater, and the apparent wind angle is closer to a reach, where the sails can generate lift and are more efficient. Dead downwind, the sails just catch wind. Sailing higher increases boatspeed enough to overcome the extra distance sailed. In stronger winds, the loss of apparent wind speed is a much smaller portion of the total windspeed so the best progress downwind occurs at deeper angles."

So, Yachting Monthly's experiments concluded that DDW was superior to sailing the angles. Farr's expert concluded the opposite. So, you have support for Derek's opinion, and support for mine. Derek won a lot of races his way, and I won a lot my way.

But, I think there's another consideration to be made here. I have crewed extensively on a Beneteau First 40, trimming the mainsail, which is the principal driving sail on the fractional rig boat. With it's PHRF rating of only 27, the Bene has an extremely easily driven hull. In light air, it accelerates easily on the slightest increase in apparent wind, so, if any boat can benefit by sailing the angles downwind, the Bene would be a likely candidate. The Catalina 25 Tall rig, by comparison, is PHRF rated at 222. It isn't nearly as easily driven as the Bene, and is far less likely to accelerate on a zephyr by sailing the angles.

So, I stand by my opinion and Derek stands by his, and both of us have good reasons for doing so. The bottom line is that there's no definitive answer to the question. My suggestion is, try it both ways and use the technique that works best for you.

Though not disagreeing with you, I believe that the way you are interpreting this article is not entirely accurate. This article does not really compare poleing out wing on wing to reaching with white sails. It only compares, wing on wing to Assym to Sym and finds that wing on wing was the slowest (compared to spin equipped boats). You could make the assumption that because they didn't compare reaching with white sails that they automatically wrote it off as slower though, which may be incorrect.

I prefer not to really limit my choice of set up as there are always soo many variables that affect the choice. Big one being convenience. If I've got people on the boat that are into sailing more than drinking and we've got a decent downwind leg I enjoy hoisting the spinnaker, just cause its fun. If my rhumb-line is close to DDW and I am not feeling lazy, I will pull the pole out and wing it. If I just want to relax, I'll reach it all the way home with a nice dark and stormy in hand. None of this really has to do with what is faster, and may be off topic, but more for enjoyment and why most of us sail.

[/rant]

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2015 : 15:03:51

quote:
Originally posted by DavidBuoy
...None of this really has to do with what is faster, and may be off topic, but more for enjoyment and why most of us sail.

However, although not being a serious racer, I understand how racing brings out the best in tactics, techniques, and execution. Those things, in turn, can benefit the cruising sailor who is trying to get to a destination expeditiously or out-run a storm. (...or to "win" those "situations" where two boats are on the same tack on the same body of water.

)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/02/2015 15:09:35

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 09/03/2015 : 05:22:49

On re-reading the article, I might have read more into it than it deserved, but gaining an understanding of complex issues like this, that are so dependent upon different sailing conditions, and that are so susceptible of different opinions is a work in progress. Every time we discuss this, for example, I ask myself, "How can Derek and I reach conclusions that are completely opposite?" After thinking about it for so many years, I think I'm finally getting an inkling.

When sailing wing and wing with a pole that is limited to the length of the boat's J measurement (That limitation is imposed by the Chesapeake Bay PHRF, and I haven't looked at the PHRF rules for all the other branches of PHRF, but I think you'll find they're all the same on that point.), the boat can only sail wing and wing efficiently within a fairly narrow angle. It is limited by the architecture of the boat's rig. If you sail too far by the lee, the mainsail will gybe. If you sail too far the other way, the jib will take on a shape that is hard to describe, but very inefficient. So, you can't really reach at all with the sails set wing and wing.

However, if you use a telescoping whisker pole that allows you to stretch the genoa out as far as possible, You can ease the jib out so far when sailing wung out that, by reaching up, you can actually get aerodynamic flow going on both sides of the jib. By doing that, the boat can generate considerable speed. I think that's what Derek is talking about. That is done at many lakes and other sailing venues where they don't race under PHRF rules, or where the rules aren't closely followed. Many such venues make their own local rules. But, for the majority of racers who sail under PHRF rules, a whisker pole longer than the J measurement is not allowed.

I think the reason why Derek and I are reaching such disparate conclusions is because he's racing under rules that don't limit the length of the pole, and I'm talking about PHRF racing, that does limit it.

If, however, we're talking about broad reaching with both sails on the same side of the boat, I agree with Luke Shingledecker, the designer for Farr, that the Beneteau First 40 can benefit by it, but more conventional, heavier boats can't.

I'll stick by my advice, however, that you try it both ways, and reach your own conclusions as to which way works the best.

We also agree on your second point, that it is always the sailor's option to either sail efficiently or to sail in a way that maximizes the comfort or pleasure of the crew. It's your boat. You can sail it any way you wish. But, when the going gets tough, it's good to know the most efficient way to get to shelter.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

dasreboot
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Response Posted - 09/04/2015 : 04:01:17

I know I extend mine way past the J measurement. It makes wing on wing a lot easier as the angle of the wind on the jib side is not as critical and I dont have to sail by the lee. Just as you described.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

DavidBuoy
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Response Posted - 09/04/2015 : 04:37:03

Steve, I do think we won that race by going wing-on-wing

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 09/04/2015 : 05:29:21

quote:
Originally posted by DavidBuoy

Steve, I do think we won that race by going wing-on-wing

I think so, too. After we rounded the windward mark and got the pole set and the sails drawing quickly, that is what enabled us to overtake and pass the lead boat, while they were still fumbling with their sails, and that was good foredeck work, thanks to you!

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/04/2015 : 10:03:52

Steve, I'm a bit confused (some would say that's my usual condition...)
Under PHRF a spinnaker pole is limited to the "J" measurement. But I have never been aware that the same prohibition applies to a whisker pole. Are you sure about this? I have raced in regattas where people from many other race venues have used their whisker poles fully extended and no-one has ever lodged a protest. I was chair of our PHRF of the Alamo Committee for many years and have never heard of this rule.
IMHO I think that a whisker pole limited to "J" is about as useful as mammary glands on a male bovine!

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Edited by - Derek Crawford on 09/04/2015 10:05:44

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