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andbarger
Deckhand

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24 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/22/2015 : 13:06:41

I have read many different articles and watched many videos about reversing a boat but I can't seem to find any that match my situation. I know about prop walk and I'm lake Erie so current/ tide don't exist, the problem becomes when the wind (about 10 kts) is blowing down the channel in the direction I need to go. Everything I have seen says to use a dock line around a pier and use it to pivot the boat into the wind, the problem is my marina does not have the piers in between 2 docks. So this is where all of you come in, I'm looking for advise on how swing the bow of the boat into the wind when reversing

Summer Vibe
1984 C25 Tall Rig
Swing Keel & Pop-Top

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2015 : 13:54:58

If I understand your problem correctly, when you back out of your slip, the wind catches your bow and won't let it come up into the wind.

I have two suggestions. First, when people back out of their slip, they often back up far enough for the bow to clear the slip, and then they shift into forward gear, expecting the boat to begin turning immediately, but a boat doesn't turn like that. The boat has to gain enough speed to have steerage way. Until it gains steerage way, the boat won't turn at all. Therefore, you should back as far from your slip as you can, so that you have enough distance to gain enough speed for the rudder to begin to work. When you shift into forward gear, don't be shy about opening the throttle. You're trying to force the bow into the wind, and it will take some power from the engine to do that.

Secondly, if your boat is a C25, when you shift into forward gear, you should push the tiller of the outboard hard to starboard. That will help to kick the stern of the boat to starboard, which will help point the bow into the wind.

If you'll look at the bottom of the posts of other members, you'll see that they include their boat model, it's model year, the type of keel, and the type of rig (tall or standard rig). That info helps us know how to give better, more specific answers to your questions. If you'll look at the upper right hand corner of the page, you'll see "Profile." Click on that, and it will take you to your member profile. Once there, you can add that info to your "signature," and it will automatically appear in every post.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/22/2015 14:15:36

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3992 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2015 : 14:29:54

Similar to what Steve said in this situation I can overcome this by turning the motor and the rudder in unison. I back out as far as I can often scaring Sara enough that she will say "Are you going to hit that boat!' Then put it into forward and turn the engine and rudder to kick the aft end around and get behind the bow. With the backward motion of the boat, The boat will just pivot for a few seconds then start to pick up forward motion. You do need to be heavy on the throttle. This is one advantage to having the outboard. The boat can be turned/pivoted without having to wait for forward motion.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2015 : 16:18:13

Good advice on using outboard and rudder in close quarters at low speed. You will also find it easier to coordinate both if you sit facing rearward and use one hand for each while you're backing.
Additional complication is that a side wind affects the bow more that it does the stern, which is stabilized to a greater degree by both engine and rudder in the water. That's an additional reason for agressive backing and forward manuevering. You really need to haul that bow up into the wind, rather than letting it blow down, which it will,if you back too gently out.
Finally, don't be too proud to back up the fairway into the wind if the wind is too high. That way the wind will aid you by blowing the bow down and keeping the stern squarely into the wind. You can turn the boat around when you get to a clearer area.

Sailor Jerry
C-25 "Sea Song"
1978, SK, Std.
Pepin, WI

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2015 : 17:31:59

Ditto what has been said before. Being able to use your rudder and outboard in unison makes it easier to maneuver in tight quarters or against contrary wind/current.

That said, when we first moved into our marina, we had a slip all the way at the far end of the fairway, no room to turn around at all. We simply backed all the way down the fairway (200 yards or so?) until I could turn in the space between our marina and the next one south of us.

A lot of us have rigged either a hard or soft link to connect our rudders with our outboards. Do a search of the forum for either term and you'll find lots of discussions on both varieties

David
C-250 Mainsheet Editor

Sirius Lepak
1997 C-250 WK TR #271 --Seattle area Port Captain --

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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1484 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2015 : 18:13:20

I am curious what extra measures you need to come into the slip? Wouldn't some form of the inverse be a solution for coming out?

Jerry

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2015 : 18:34:16

quote:
Originally posted by jerlim

I am curious what extra measures you need to come into the slip? Wouldn't some form of the inverse be a solution for coming out?

The problem with approaching the slip downwind is that, if the wind is very strong at all, it tends to push the boat so that you enter the slip too fast, making it hard to stop without hitting the dock. In moderate winds, I think you could just enter it normally, but in a strong wind, I think I'd approach the slip hugging the left side of the channel, go past it, and then turn around to starboard and come back towards it to windward. By approaching it with the wind on the bow, you could enter the slip at a slower speed, making it easier to stop after you're in the slip. This assumes that there is enough room downwind of your slip to do that maneuver.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Jan Briede
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2015 : 18:39:39

I agree, the rudder and outboard in unison is what lets me maneuver in close quarters I have a similar situation, but I have a line stretched between the the two boats which allows me to grab onto the line and pull myself in the last 15 or so feet. But then I have a piling between the two boats between I was able to hang that line.
Jan

Jan Briede
Beagle
1979 TR #1242 FK
L-Dinette
Yorktown, VA
Blog -- http://vanomad.blogspot.com/

csmcg
1st Mate

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96 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2015 : 11:30:15

The admittedly few times that I have had a similar situation, I just backed out of the slip and reversed (upwind) down the fairway until I got to an area with sufficient maneuvering room.

This is with a WK250 where I cannot turn the motor any appreciable amount, thus requiring that some way is on for there to be any kind of maneuvering control beyond a bit of prop-walk.

At the 2013 HPCC, one particular set of wind conditions and traffic had me reversing almost all the way out to open water. Myself and others spent a while fending off quite a few folks who were having trouble getting pointed upwind when the thought occurred to just take what the wind gives you in the form of a relatively stable, weathervaned hull. Holding position to wait for traffic was relatively easy as there was no struggle to balance the nose into the wind while being mostly stationary.

Would this kind of activity be frowned upon in a typical marina?

Regards.

pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2015 : 12:27:25

Not only would I not frown on backing out, I would consider an intelligent sailor solution. Done it several times in different situations, and would much prefer others would do it if my boat were in an adjoining berth. Most marina collisions I have seen were boats attempting to get the bow up in too much oppositional wind and then crashing into others still in their berth.

Sailor Jerry
C-25 "Sea Song"
1978, SK, Std.
Pepin, WI

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2015 : 13:45:55

If your able, change to a downwind dock. Might make things easier. My slip is strategically chosen for reasons such as this.

Don Lucier

North Star SR/FK

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2015 : 15:32:23

quote:
Originally posted by dlucier

If your able, change to a downwind dock. Might make things easier. My slip is strategically chosen for reasons such as this.

If possible it's worth the few bucks extra to have a no drama slip. I thought about switching to a cheaper slip just near me but after watching the previous tenant with a 22' boat struggle profusely in any kind of wind decided I would rather pay the money to stay at my nice slip. By current slip neighbor and good friend has a Sabre 362 that just fits in the same size slip as my 25 footer. I have so much room to work with its great. I sail out of my slip when possible.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2015 : 23:04:30

Backing out can can be a good solution--just keep a tight hold on the tiller--the rudder wants to kick hard over.

I do like having a leeward finger dock (in prevailing winds), especially with my powerboat, which slips and slides a lot more than sailboats do. Whenever the wind is piping up or the current is strong, I enter the slip going upwind or up-current, as Steve describes. Then I use a spring-line to a midship cleat to stop the boat and pull her into the dock. To turn the boat around in tight quarters, I come to a stop and then use the motor to turn to port so the prop-walk makes the turn tighter. With some bursts in reverse with the motor turned the other way, you can virtually pivot her in place.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2015 : 08:41:09

Excellent point, Dave! One of my most embarrasing moments in sailing was getting pinned to the side of the cockpit by the tiller of an Erickson 27 (huge rudder) while back down facing into a strong wind. Had to have a crew mate free me...

Sailor Jerry
C-25 "Sea Song"
1978, SK, Std.
Pepin, WI

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2015 : 18:37:28

quote:
Originally posted by jerlim

I am curious what extra measures you need to come into the slip? Wouldn't some form of the inverse be a solution for coming out?

`There's one other alternative that you should consider if you want to enter a slip with a strong wind on the stern as you approach it. If you back into the slip, you will be able to enter the slip at slow speed, and you'll probably be able to steer more easily. To back into the slip with a strong wind at your back, you'll want to make the turn early, so that, by the time the wind blows the boat to leeward, it will be lined up with the slip.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2015 : 20:42:36

I watched a guy back a 40' Jeanneau about a hundred yards up the fairway and back into his slip against the side dock (no room to go past his slip). Wind was 12-15 knots 90 degrees to the slip.

He never touched the dock, just stepped off the boat with the dock line in his hand and dropped it over the cleat. He was so calm he looked like he could have had a martini in his other hand.

Of course it didn't hurt that he had bow thrusters. LOL

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2015 : 08:31:10

quote:
Originally posted by GaryB

Of course it didn't hurt that he had bow thrusters. LOL

Ya, it's amusing to watch a Hinckley with a thrust deflector at the transom, a thruster in the bow, a joystick at the helm, and GPS "hold position" function. Push the stick sideways and BRRRRRRRRRT... you move sideways up to the dock. Click a switch, and you hold there, martini in hand. The docklines can come whenever you've finished the martini.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/25/2015 08:34:03

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2015 : 09:13:21

You don't need a bow thruster to maneuver big boats, but sometimes it sure makes it easier. I helped a friend take his Hunter 43 to his home dock after he had one installed, and, as we were pulling out of the slip, a strong crosswind tried to blow the bow to leeward, the opposite way from where we wanted to go. He turned on the bow thruster, and it easily pushed the bow up into the wind. I had never seen one work before, but that was pretty neat!

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2015 : 09:35:06

Here's a situation... Imagine that without the bow thruster.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2015 : 11:30:36

Wow, I bet he breathed a sigh of relief after that. I find it a bit amusing that the crew hauled up some fenders at the end. Like they were going to do something. With the weight of that ship I think they would have popped like balloons.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

RAG Sailor
Navigator

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144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2015 : 13:37:13

Ahoy, Andbarger

Welcome to the club. I too have exactly the identical set up. Most of the answers are good ones and you'll find that a combination of all will work for you. Key thing is not to get frustrated. When all else fails, the backing out method always works. Don't worry what others in the marina think. They are all greatful you are cautious and won't wreck their boats.

Another reason to list your craft's model info is because different things happen to the boat. For instance, I have a SK (swing keel). When I back out too fast water comes up the the shaft where the cable enters the boat getting my quarter berth wet. The engine backwash does that so I have to remember to ease it down the way.

Practice will be your only answer as moving slips don't help. Why? Remember the wind is variable. No matter where you are, at some point the wind will be different one day vs the next. Good luck and have fun.

Good to be back at sea!

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2015 : 14:50:38

I was aboard a DLG (Destroyer) in the late 70's early 80's as part of COMSTANAVFORLANT.

On the day of our departure from the fleet, we were berthed bow in to the docks.

The ship prepped for departure, final lines were cast off and we shifted up to full speed astern... .all the way out of the harbor!

Hubris!

Paul

Joint Decision. (Sold)
PO C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Moved up to C34 Eximius

Updated August 2015

andbarger
Deckhand

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24 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2015 : 10:18:56

Thanks everyone for the help!! I still have some time before the boat will get to float again. But I will try some of your sugestions and will try to report back later this summer.

Summer Vibe
1984 C25 Tall Rig
Swing Keel & Pop-Top

Akenumber
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2015 : 18:37:41

I don't believe anyone touched on this, but my dock handling greatly improved with a good motor and high thrust prop

Ken
San Diego
84 C25 SR/FK 4116
The KRAKEN

andbarger
Deckhand

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24 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2015 : 09:37:32

Akenumber - I have that taken care of, the boat came with a 9.9 Yamaha long shaft Sail Drive motor. It has elephant ears for the blades on the prop!

Summer Vibe
1984 C25 Tall Rig
Swing Keel & Pop-Top

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