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Best mainsail for our boats ?

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C25BC
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Canada
200 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/01/2017 : 05:40:27

It looks like the mainsail that came with my boat is the original and the condition it is In is probably not useable . Lack of sailing experience on my part, eagerness to buy a boat I had long been looking for , and a unrealistic expectation of integrity from a seller has me looking for a new sail . Anyway, I'll be in the market for a new mainsail in the fall , I don't think this one is even worth recutting at a sailmakers. So what's the best sail for my boat ? Or any tips on what to look for ? Full battens ? Loose foot or bolt ? Stay away from offshore manufactures ? Anything else would be helpful .
Thanks ,
Angus

Angus
S.V.Tempus
#4748
1984 Catalina 25 SK/SR/Trad.

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2017 : 06:39:20

Tell us about your "typical" and range of sailing conditions, and whether you plan to race, cruise, or just day-sail.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/01/2017 06:40:25

C25BC
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Canada
200 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2017 : 06:58:30

Generally day sailing , overnighting once in awhile on islands . The lake where we keep our boat is 60 km long and about nine wide ( 40 miles by 6 ) it goes to 900 ft deep and is ice cold , lost more then a few people over the years from cold shock, mostly recreational boaters making bad choices , the wind howls thru the valley on summer afternoons you can pretty well set your watch by it . I and a couple others I sail with generally go out with a reef in the main and go from there . Apparently the lake is known to be challenging to sailors . I plan on keeping the boat for some time and would like to get the best sail I can afford .

Angus
S.V.Tempus
#4748
1984 Catalina 25 SK/SR/Trad.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2017 : 09:49:52

It sounds like a lake that can be challenging, and that's big enough that you might not be able to quickly find shelter in a blow. For that reason, I'd recommend a mainsail with two reefs. Only the top two battens should be full. It should have a loose foot and I'd want a Cunningham. I have never owned a sail made by Ullman/Ventura, CA, but a number of our members have, and liked them very much. They have posted photos of them and they appeared to be very well made with attention to details. There are many other good sailmakers, but I'd certainly ask them for a quote.

If I was buying a new sail with an eye to long term durability, I'd ask if they can make it with Tenara thread.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

C25BC
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Canada
200 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2017 : 11:06:37

2 reefs , interesting ,any opinions on battens ? I've heard full battens require lazy jacks the one I have now is 4 partials or quarters and then there's the 2 & 2 , not really sure what the difference is in performance except the idea of full battens seems more functional

Angus
S.V.Tempus
#4748
1984 Catalina 25 SK/SR/Trad.

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2017 : 12:08:20

I agree with everything Steve said--loose foot (you'll need to rig a new out-haul), 2 reefs, 2 full and 2 partial battens (a fully-battened main can get complicated), and Ullman Ventura (Gary Swenson) really knows these boats, and I think they have been a sailmaker for Catalina. I'm sure Gary will cover every detail with you. But I don't know the cost considerations for Canada.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Sailynn
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USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2017 : 20:03:57

Full battens add more weight for hoisting sail. I've owned all three styles and prefer the 2/2 setup. I agree with Steve Milby. Ullman makes a good sail, and a little more durable than Sail Warehouse who also makes a good affordable sail, IMHO.

Lynn Buchanan
1988 C25 SR/WK #5777
Sailynn
Nevada City, CA

C25BC
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Canada
200 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2017 : 12:25:09

quote:
Originally posted by Sailynn

Full battens add more weight for hoisting sail. I've owned all three styles and prefer the 2/2 setup. I agree with Steve Milby. Ullman makes a good sail, and a little more durable than Sail Warehouse who also makes a good affordable sail, IMHO.

How would need to change the outhaul ? I have the one that runs inside the boom now .

Angus
S.V.Tempus
#4748
1984 Catalina 25 SK/SR/Trad.

C25BC
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Canada
200 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2017 : 12:36:00

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

I agree with everything Steve said--loose foot (you'll need to rig a new out-haul), 2 reefs, 2 full and 2 partial battens (a fully-battened main can get complicated), and Ullman Ventura (Gary Swenson) really knows these boats, and I think they have been a sailmaker for Catalina. I'm sure Gary will cover every detail with you. But I don't know the cost considerations for Canada.

Sorry sailyn wrong quote ... How would I need to change the outhaul ?

Angus
S.V.Tempus
#4748
1984 Catalina 25 SK/SR/Trad.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2017 : 12:59:54

You need to be able to adjust the foot tension of a loose footed mainsail fairly easily. As delivered from the factory, C25s generally had no device to tension the outhaul. If your boat doesn't have a mechanism for adjusting it, you'll need to rig something. It doesn't have to be complicated or expensive.

Actually, regardless of whether the mainsail is attached or loose footed, they all benefit greatly by having the outhaul tension adjusted to the wind strength, but "back in the day," many people didn't realize that, and they simply tied the clew to the outhaul, and never adjusted it. When loose footed mains became popular, people suddenly realized how much benefit was gained by adjusting the outhaul tension, so they added a tensioning device. The loose footed mainsail lets you visualize the air flow more easily.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3994 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2017 : 13:11:56

You have an internal outhaul on an 84? Hmm. I wonder if your boom is original.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

C25BC
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Canada
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Response Posted - 07/02/2017 : 14:48:03

quote:
Originally posted by islander

You have an internal outhaul on an 84? Hmm. I wonder if your boom is original.

Not sure about that , didn't know if it was a CD extra or different boom . It has the topping lift and it looks like it had lazy jacks at one time the way there is padeyes spaced out on the boom and smal ratcheting blocks on mast under spreaders . It's a lot easier to reef a loose foot as well isn't it ? No tie downs in th middle of the sail

Angus
S.V.Tempus
#4748
1984 Catalina 25 SK/SR/Trad.

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2017 : 19:48:21

I don't see the connection between loose-footed and ease of reefing, except that the reef ties can go just around the sail (above the boom rather than under the boom), preventing possible damage to the sail.

The difference in the out-haul has to with having more purchase (like 3:1 or more) to get the tension you need for stronger winds. With a bolt-rope foot, you pretty much set it and forget it, and the foot shape is fixed (straight as the boom, or maybe based on a "shelf" built into the foot), so the tension isn't as critical. With the loose foot, the tension shapes the whole sail. I supposed you could rig a multi-part system from the internal line from the cockpit.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/02/2017 19:50:35

C25BC
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Canada
200 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2017 : 20:20:31

My mistake , when I was looking for a new boat I was on a cal 25 with a looose foot and the owner just pulled the reef from the cockpit no other ties .

Angus
S.V.Tempus
#4748
1984 Catalina 25 SK/SR/Trad.

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2017 : 04:44:47

I ordered a main sail from Ulman with double reef full battens with loose foot. I am quite pleased with it. I have only double reefed a couple of times. I do have an outhaul. If you order I think in the late fall for February delivery you get a discount at Catalina Direct. I was able to get the same price from Ulman and a quicker delivery when I ordered the jib. I am not a sail expert by any means but those who have a lot more sailing experience seem to like the sail. Well that's my two cents worth.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

C25BC
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Canada
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Response Posted - 07/03/2017 : 05:13:33

Yeah , I was just looking at Catalina direct , that's where I'll go , wait for the sale and hope our currency exchange rate is reasonable .

Angus
S.V.Tempus
#4748
1984 Catalina 25 SK/SR/Trad.

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2017 : 05:57:18

Also look at FX sails. A friend of mine with a Capri 26 bought one from them and has been very pleased with it.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2017 : 10:24:43

I got mine from Bacon Sails here in Annapolis. Don't believe they are made on-site so comparable to other entry/mid-level sail lofts. Nicely constructed though and I've been extremely pleased with it especially for the $500 I paid. I figure if it lasts even half as long as one costing twice as much, I can replace it with another or different one at that point. Made sense for me at the time of purchase and still does.

http://baconsails.com/product/catalina-25-standard-rig-mainsail/

Edit: Looks like the photobucket problem will hit hard.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Edited by - DavidBuoy on 07/07/2017 11:16:11

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2017 : 13:56:57

I should amend my statement about the bolt-rope foot and out-haul... Most people I've known, including myself, never adjust it, at least partly because it didn't seem very adjustable. I could stretch it a little, but it didn't seem I could collapse it to make the sail that much fuller--the bolt rope was essentially a fixed length inside the track. Correspondingly, my out-haul was a simple 2:1 (?) purchase line with a loop as a stopper at the boom end, forward through the clew, then yanked back hard and tied off to the loop--no blocks involved. Could the foot have been tighter? Probably a little, but the shape variability was nothing like it is with a loose foot. If had raced her, I would have been particularly disadvantaged in light air. I went with it fairly tight and "suffered the consequences" (not much).

CD sells a fancy 8:1 internal kit--wire to rope with all of the hardware. Maybe you already have it.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2017 : 14:52:21

The bolt rope foot is adjustable, but it has a narrow range of adjustment. It can be relaxed in light air, giving the main sail a somewhat full shape, or it can be tensioned in stronger winds and given a fairly flat shape, but the loose foot has a much wider range of adjustment. It can be adjusted either flatter or fuller than a bolt rope main sail.

In moderate winds, 8-12 kts, a boat with a bolt rope foot will sail about as well as one with a loose foot. That's why people often think adjusting the outhaul tension doesn't make much difference. You'll only notice the difference in light air or strong winds. As the windspeed increases, the boat will begin to be overpowered and will heel excessively. When sailing closehauled, with the jib trimmed close in, you'll notice that the jib will begin to backwind the mainsail. Flattening the mainsail will reduce the backwinding, and will depower the mainsail, which will help keep the boat on it's feet.

In light winds, and when sailing off the wind, giving the mainsail a fuller shape will power up the sail. In light winds and when sailing downwind, I ease the mainsail's outhaul, as well as the jib halyard and main halyard and backstay adjuster. That added fullness greatly powers up both sails. If those control lines are led to the cockpit, it's easy to make those adjustments.

Thus, where you will see a performance benefit from a loose footed mainsail is in stronger winds or in light air. If you'll form a habit of adjusting the tension on those control lines appropriately to the wind strength, you'll enjoy much better performance.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

oldengineer1949
1st Mate

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USA
75 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2017 : 08:07:09

Angus,

regarding your original post, I just had a recent experience with my original 40+ year-old mainsail. During our last sail a few weeks ago, I saw a 4-inch rip just above the first batten pocket. We dropped sail, and motored home. I contacted Ullman Sails here in Virginia, and they said they could work on my sail. I mailed it to them, and they promptly sent me a very reasonable estimate, which included all the work necessary to fully rehab the sail, including the three smaller rips that they found during their initial inspection. A week and a half later, I picked up the sail (good excuse to investigate Virginia's awesome Northern Neck countryside). Total cost was $170 (US). I have a good-as-new main for far less than a new one would cost. I heartily recommend you consider having Ullman or any of the other reputable sail lofts examine your sail, and give you their recommendation as to repair or replacement.
Regards,

Al and Bernadette, "Pualani Nui", '82 C25 SR/SK, homeport MCB Quantico

Edited by - oldengineer1949 on 07/07/2017 09:30:12

C25BC
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Canada
200 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2017 : 13:08:18

That is a consideration , prices are generally higher in Canada . When I bought the boat it had a brand new 135 genoa with small tears along the uv strip , I took it to our local loft who I've dealt with before and always found reasonable in price and a skilled sail maker , he said the sail had been put on the furler backwards and that's where the tears came from and he would put a new uv strip on . It took 2 months and was $430 , I don't know if that's expensive or not but I figured 2 months would be the rest of my summer and the price would be considerably higher for a rebuilt main . But I think I will drop it by in September if my plan works for the summer . As I mentioned earlier the wind blows pretty good at our lake every afternoon and we generally reef the main for a few hours so I'm thinking of trying to leave it reefed and use the headsail it still should be better then no main at all . Any flaws in my plan ?
Angus

Angus
S.V.Tempus
#4748
1984 Catalina 25 SK/SR/Trad.

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3994 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2017 : 11:25:06

Angus, The C25 is a headsail driven boat that will sail very well on the headsail alone. The drawback is that when tacking it will tend to over tack. I sail on my headsail quite often when the wind is strong or I'm just to lazy to deal with the mainsail. The mainsail even reefed does balance the boat but you should give headsail only a try. It's nice to just pull the furling line and head for home at the end of the day. Here's a video of us sailing in strong winds with just the headsail. The headsail is reefed and we were still cruzin along in the 5-6+ range.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh9SmFxOXPo

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 07/07/2017 11:47:45

C25BC
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Canada
200 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2017 : 11:59:40

I've watched that video,looks good , I think I've watched everything there is on our boats . When we first put the head sail on we went out and used it by itself just to get the feel for the furler and did like it quite a bit, I did notice it handled differently with just the headsail . There's no shortage of wind where we are ,I think the summer will work out fine with a lame wing.

Angus
S.V.Tempus
#4748
1984 Catalina 25 SK/SR/Trad.

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3994 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2017 : 12:30:49

It's done a lot around me. Some on headsail some use the main only. It depends on the boat and what drives it best.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2017 : 16:24:33

My main hasn't been up in probably 3 years. It's just too easy to idle out of the marina, pull a string and go sailing, then pull it again and go back to the dock. ALMOST like stinkpotting!

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 07/07/2017 16:25:15

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